No argument with anything here Bankei...I was just voicing my sentiments on the matter...
Be well...and happy holidays...
Errors in the ordination ceremony
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony
It's a slippery slope isn't it? Just how many rules can one loosen before the ordination becomes invalid?
Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony
pilgrim,
Can you define what you mean by "invalid"? Can you define what it means for an ordination to be "valid"?
chownah
Can you define what you mean by "invalid"? Can you define what it means for an ordination to be "valid"?
chownah
Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony
Maybe I have not phrased my question propoerly....Let's look at one aspect of becoming a monk.....it seems that going forth into homelessness is an essential concept describing what it means to become a monk......can loosening a rule somehow make someone's going forth into homelessness invalid......can one go forth invalidly into homelessness or go forth into an invalid homelessness?chownah wrote:pilgrim,
Can you define what you mean by "invalid"? Can you define what it means for an ordination to be "valid"?
chownah
chownah
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony
Greetings bhante,
- Monk A whose ordination was valid, but handled money, sleazed off with women etc. and made no effort towards liberation.
- Monk B whose ordination was invalid based on some technicality inconsequential to the holy life, yet who earnestly followed the Noble Eightfold Path.
Metta,
Retro.
Yes, it's kinda missing the point, isn't it? Who would be more likely to be praised by Buddha?...appicchato wrote:The Buddha said 'Ehi Pasiko'...'come and see'...what's happening today is rite and ritual...some might say it's a lot of wasted effort and energy mulling over these things...a certain number of stones has to be laid out just right, or one is not a monk...please...
- Monk A whose ordination was valid, but handled money, sleazed off with women etc. and made no effort towards liberation.
- Monk B whose ordination was invalid based on some technicality inconsequential to the holy life, yet who earnestly followed the Noble Eightfold Path.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony
Hi Retroretrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
Yes, it's kinda missing the point, isn't it? Who would be more likely to be praised by Buddha?...appicchato wrote:The Buddha said 'Ehi Pasiko'...'come and see'...what's happening today is rite and ritual...some might say it's a lot of wasted effort and energy mulling over these things...a certain number of stones has to be laid out just right, or one is not a monk...please...
- Monk A whose ordination was valid, but handled money, sleazed off with women etc. and made no effort towards liberation.
- Monk B whose ordination was invalid based on some technicality inconsequential to the holy life, yet who earnestly followed the Noble Eightfold Path.
Metta,
Retro.
This is the link of argument used by Sangharakshita. His teachers were perhaps bad monks according to the vinaya, but good Buddhists generally. The trouble is Sangharakshita then started indulging in various activities, even with students, and probably used this line of argument to justify it in a sense.
Interestingly the great ex-monk Khantipalo seems to have come to the defence of Sangharakshita a few times too.
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei