Errors in the ordination ceremony

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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appicchato
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by appicchato »

No argument with anything here Bankei...I was just voicing my sentiments on the matter...

Be well...and happy holidays...
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pilgrim
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by pilgrim »

It's a slippery slope isn't it? Just how many rules can one loosen before the ordination becomes invalid?
chownah
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by chownah »

pilgrim,
Can you define what you mean by "invalid"? Can you define what it means for an ordination to be "valid"?
chownah
chownah
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by chownah »

chownah wrote:pilgrim,
Can you define what you mean by "invalid"? Can you define what it means for an ordination to be "valid"?
chownah
Maybe I have not phrased my question propoerly....Let's look at one aspect of becoming a monk.....it seems that going forth into homelessness is an essential concept describing what it means to become a monk......can loosening a rule somehow make someone's going forth into homelessness invalid......can one go forth invalidly into homelessness or go forth into an invalid homelessness?
chownah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,
appicchato wrote:The Buddha said 'Ehi Pasiko'...'come and see'...what's happening today is rite and ritual...some might say it's a lot of wasted effort and energy mulling over these things...a certain number of stones has to be laid out just right, or one is not a monk...please...
Yes, it's kinda missing the point, isn't it? Who would be more likely to be praised by Buddha?...

- Monk A whose ordination was valid, but handled money, sleazed off with women etc. and made no effort towards liberation.
- Monk B whose ordination was invalid based on some technicality inconsequential to the holy life, yet who earnestly followed the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Bankei
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Re: Errors in the ordination ceremony

Post by Bankei »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
appicchato wrote:The Buddha said 'Ehi Pasiko'...'come and see'...what's happening today is rite and ritual...some might say it's a lot of wasted effort and energy mulling over these things...a certain number of stones has to be laid out just right, or one is not a monk...please...
Yes, it's kinda missing the point, isn't it? Who would be more likely to be praised by Buddha?...

- Monk A whose ordination was valid, but handled money, sleazed off with women etc. and made no effort towards liberation.
- Monk B whose ordination was invalid based on some technicality inconsequential to the holy life, yet who earnestly followed the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro

This is the link of argument used by Sangharakshita. His teachers were perhaps bad monks according to the vinaya, but good Buddhists generally. The trouble is Sangharakshita then started indulging in various activities, even with students, and probably used this line of argument to justify it in a sense.

Interestingly the great ex-monk Khantipalo seems to have come to the defence of Sangharakshita a few times too.
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Bankei
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