Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

I have been reading this thread with interest and considered many things back and forth. In my experience there IS momentariness, and it is actually taught in the suttas (dhammas are said to arise, persist and fall). Example: Look to the left, look to the right. You have just witnessed momentariness of seeing. It is empirically given to experience.

The only thing is that it should not be abstracted into zero-length or "trillions cittas per second" which are not empirical truth, unless it is actually experienced. As you are reading, the consciousness state changes with every letter, word, sentence. Consciousness is always consciousness of something, and it changes with its object - in this case letters, words, sentences. We do not live in some frozen state where nothing changes. If nothing would change, then you would never finish this sentence after starting to read it. IMHO,

"Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' " - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe the number 10^21 of cittas per second should be taken metaphorically just like number "500" is metaphoric meaning "a lot". Indians were not precise with numbers like us, and unintended literalism for people removed from that time and culture can lead to hair splitting discussions such as these.

Alex
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Ben
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
I understand where you are coming from regarding some of the insight knowledges and the perceived negativity in which those experiences seem to be framed. Speaking from my own experience, those nanas are characterised by equanimity. They are very different from the affective experience of terror, fearfulness, misery and disgust. I think I have mentioned this before in another thread and I have said similar things with regard to the contemplation of the repulsiveness of nutriment. Its not that we develop aversive responses to food or phenomena. What we are doing is seeing food, phenomena or our situation in greater clarity unveiled from matrices of aversion, craving and ignorance in their myriad and very often subtle forms.
Entirely possible to me too. Given the insight-knowledges framework of the Visuddhimagga is not my path, I have no inclination to desire, wish or hope that that's what it was either.
Sure, I understand. In day to day practice and during a retreat I put aside everything except the instruction atapi sampajjano satima with respect to the object. Experiences come and go. But what I experience isn't as important as how I experience. What is the quality of mind when I avert to the object? How successful am I in carrying out the instruction atapi sampajjano satima? What one thinks one should be experience becomes a bit of a barrier to actually perceiving what's actually happening moment to moment.

In fact, I put aside just about everything whether it be the Dhamma according to SN Goenka, U Ba Khin, Ledi Sayadaw or others and I regard all of it as provisionally acceptable. While I have great confidence in the lineage I practice in and the scholar/meditation teachers within my tradition I also investigate their teachings with the cool piercing laser or objective investigation.

Anyway, I've said enough and I need to get back to work if I want to get out of here this evening...
kind regards,

Ben
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Alex123
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Alex123 »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: Yes, but not used in such a grim, miserable and depressing way. In the suttas, adinava is hued with clear-seeing, dispassion and equanimity.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:]
On seeing [the daughters of Mara] — Discontent, Craving, & Passion — there wasn't even the desire for sex. So what would I want with this, filled with urine & excrement? I wouldn't want to touch it even with my foot. - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Full of the many clans of impurities, the great manufacturer of excrement, like a stagnant pool, a great tumor, great wound, full of blood & lymph, immersed in a cesspool, trickling liquids, the body is oozing foulness — always. Bound together with sixty sinews, plastered with a stucco of muscle, wrapped in a jacket of skin, this foul body is of no worth at all. Linked together with a chain of bones, stitched together with tendon-threads, it produces its various postures, from being hitched up together. Headed surely to death, in the presence of the King of Mortality, the man who learns to discard it right here, goes wherever he wants. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If correctly applied, these teachings lead to joy.


With best wishes,

Alex
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Anyway, I've said enough and I need to get back to work if I want to get out of here this evening...
I did enjoy your post though, so thanks for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:If correctly applied, these teachings lead to joy.
Yes - joy, as opposed to sour-facing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by bodom »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,

I have no problems whatsoever with adinava as relating to the draw-backs of conditioned experience.

The terms I was using above, were taken straight from Mahasi Sayadaw's "The Progress of Insight"...
Got ya. Thanks for clarifying.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by robertk »

robertk wrote:
tell me if you think that it is the same citta or a different one that hears, that sees, etc
?
Nana: Cognitions are classified in terms of sense faculty and object. MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta:
Umm ok. So are the 'cognition that arise say with sound object or visible object different or are they still the same one?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Brizzy »

chownah wrote:
Brizzy wrote: One cannot use every experience to progress on the path.
I think you are mistaken....every experience is an opportunity....I guess.....
chownah
I think that points to a vital concern in this thread. With the idea that every experience is an opportunity does that apply to sex or pursuing other sensual pleasures? Does it apply to developing the dissolution experience? Not every experience is to be developed.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
Brizzy
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,

I have no problems whatsoever with adinava as relating to the draw-backs of conditioned experience.

The terms I was using above, were taken straight from Mahasi Sayadaw's "The Progress of Insight" (Visuddhiñana-katha)

- Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthana-ñana)
- Knowledge of Misery (adinava-ñana)
- Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida-ñana)

In connection to adinava-ñana, Mahasi Sayadaw says...
When he has realized the fearfulness (of the formations) through the knowledge of fear, and keeps on noticing continuously, then the "knowledge of misery" will arise in him before long. When it has arisen, all formations everywhere — whether among the objects noticed, or among the states of consciousness engaged in noticing, or in any kind of life or existence that is brought to mind — will appear insipid, without a vitalizing factor, and unsatisfying. So he sees, at that time, only suffering, only unsatisfactoriness, only misery. Therefore this state is called "knowledge of misery."
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
bodom wrote:The term adinava can be found all over the suttas.
Yes, but not used in such a grim, miserable and depressing way. In the suttas, adinava is hued with clear-seeing, dispassion and equanimity.

This whole notion of "any kind of life or existence that is brought to mind — will appear insipid, without a vitalizing factor, and unsatisfying" is so different from the seven factors of enlightenment, as taught by the Buddha...

1. Mindfulness (sati)
2. Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
3. Energy (viriya)
4. Rapture or happiness (piti)
5. Calm (passaddhi)
6. Equilibrium of the detached intellect (samadhi)
7. Equanimity (upekkha)
MN 54 wrote:'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a chain of bones, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace."
Metta,
Retro. :)
I pursued the method a bit further before I had concerns.
I had the fear & misery nana's - one of my concerns was that the equanimity that I developed felt imposed/lifeless/dead, whereas the equanimity I have experienced pursuing sutta jhanas was natural/rich/deep and a solid basis for discernment.
The fear that I felt via the nana's was truly fearful, the fear/dispassion that I cultivated via the suttas was truly joyful.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by chownah »

Brizzy wrote:
chownah wrote:
Brizzy wrote: One cannot use every experience to progress on the path.
I think you are mistaken....every experience is an opportunity....I guess.....
chownah
I think that points to a vital concern in this thread. With the idea that every experience is an opportunity does that apply to sex or pursuing other sensual pleasures? Does it apply to developing the dissolution experience? Not every experience is to be developed.

Metta

:smile:
Yes, I think it applies to sex and pursuit of other sensual pleasures....absolutely! It is often easier to see clinging when it is a very strong and recurring clinging.....sex and other sensual pleasures help to make clinging very obvious to the careful observer I think. We do have sex and pursue sensual desires....let's use it to point the way along the path....We don't need to worry about developing sexual desire and pursuit of sensual pleasure because they are already developed......You seem to have lumped the dissolution experience along with sensual pleasures and then say that not every experience is to be developed.....why not disentangle the two and make a statement about what is bad about developing the dissolution experience and don't let people fall into the false trap of guilt by association. Maybe people get too attached to the dissolution experience....that would be a reason to not develop it or to at least develop it with some knowledge that could help avoid excessive clinging......there is no precept to avoid dissolution expereinces, are you suggesting we make it a precept?.....or.....what harm does it do?......seems like some people come to a certain type of insight from the experience...I have never done it so I really have no basis to approve or disapprove of it.....is the dissolution expereince more harmful than rock and roll or rich desserts?
chownah
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by robertk »

is the dissolution expereince more harmful than rock and roll or rich desserts?
chownah
There are two levels of skeptics on this thread:
1. Nana et al, who belive the ancient Theravadana got it all wrong, there is no momentary dhammas arising and pasing, hence teh Visuddhimgga, abhidhammasangaha and so on are leading people in teh wrong direction. Any technique taking its basis from those ancient works must also be wrong. hence any dissolution experience based on say the Burmese techniques of teh 20th century are delusional and are leading people who knows where.

2. Others on this thread think the ancients Theravada had it 100% right: there are merely momentary elements arising and ceasing, billions in a fingersnap, and this is an exact description of reality, and any deep insight will lead one to see that is true. However, this section thinks that many/most of the technique following people who think they have experienced 'dissolution' etc are attaching to some strange experience they have while doing some sort of concentration exercise.

Why is the dissolution experience harmful: well any genuine one according to group two, is due to profound devlopment of panna and is a clear and unmistakable level of genuine insight. But the fake dissolution is harmful because it arises together with a subtle silabataparamasa (attachment to rule and ritual) so that one will become more and more attached to a technique and mistake the wrong path for the right one. The person who enjoys rock and roll and toffee banofee has no belief that this is part of the path towards enlightnment, it is just attachment but with the addition of the silbataparamasa.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

robertk wrote:Umm ok. So are the 'cognition that arise say with sound object or visible object different or are they still the same one?
Already answered. Why would you want to think that they are the same one?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:I have been reading this thread with interest and considered many things back and forth. In my experience there IS momentariness, and it is actually taught in the suttas (dhammas are said to arise, persist and fall).
Change and alteration of what persists does not entail momentariness.
Alex123 wrote:The only thing is that it should not be abstracted into zero-length or "trillions cittas per second" which are not empirical truth, unless it is actually experienced.... Maybe the number 10^21 of cittas per second should be taken metaphorically just like number "500" is metaphoric meaning "a lot".
Momentariness is already an abstraction. It doesn't matter at all how short a duration you wish to ascribe to a mind moment, it's still an abstraction that has no demonstrable basis.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Brizzy »

chownah wrote:is the dissolution expereince more harmful than rock and roll or rich desserts?
chownah
Well, yes & no. If you want to experience rich desserts & rock & roll, buy yourself a cake and eat it at a rock concert, desires abated. Your desires would not be abated if you were given 6 oysters to eat and went to the opera. The point is, are the nana knowledges part of the BUDDHA'S path to enlightenment? If enlightenment is your desire, is dissolution going to lead to cake and Rock & Roll (enlightenment), or oysters and opera (?????)?
Obviously, it is up to every individual to decide whether dissolution is part of the Buddha's path. However since these knowledges & experiences are not described in the suttas( THE most ANCIENT teachings) then I will defer to the Buddha's own words.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Brizzy »

chownah wrote: Yes, I think it applies to sex and pursuit of other sensual pleasures....absolutely! It is often easier to see clinging when it is a very strong and recurring clinging.....sex and other sensual pleasures help to make clinging very obvious to the careful observer I think. We do have sex and pursue sensual desires....let's use it to point the way along the path....We don't need to worry about developing sexual desire and pursuit of sensual pleasure because they are already developed......You seem to have lumped the dissolution experience along with sensual pleasures and then say that not every experience is to be developed.....why not disentangle the two and make a statement about what is bad about developing the dissolution experience and don't let people fall into the false trap of guilt by association. Maybe people get too attached to the dissolution experience....that would be a reason to not develop it or to at least develop it with some knowledge that could help avoid excessive clinging......there is no precept to avoid dissolution expereinces, are you suggesting we make it a precept?.....or.....what harm does it do?......seems like some people come to a certain type of insight from the experience...I have never done it so I really have no basis to approve or disapprove of it.....is the dissolution expereince more harmful than rock and roll or rich desserts?
chownah
It probably was disingenuous of me in linking dissolution to what I was saying. My point remains about 'every experience' though. Some experiences have to be developed e.g. sexual/thieving/murderous etc. Surely these are not experiences to aid one on the path.
BTW Sex was explicitly highlighted by the Buddha as an experience that would not aid one on the path.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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