Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:31 am

i take pills on needly bases, do not take them as proscribe, why because it is your body and your mind, tell the doctor, i want a plan to get off the pills
those who prescribe and give pills will never take them themself ,why because they will make them sick
if you take them regular, eventually you level of talorance will increase and you become more addictive to pills, sleep, and overweight since you get older and your metabolism slows down
and pills do not help me, America is overweight because of pills and some supplements, they add powder to food
i become lazy and overeat
my head becomes dizzy
i will tell you who the pills help
they help your doctor have a job, they help hospitals work they help lawyers and the system , that says for the people, by the people
is not working, thats the way i see it
it should be abandon the wrong ways people and go to the right ways people.
abandon the sick ways people and learn the good ways
your friends and family, listen to the doctor, why thats what sick people do,
to tell you, its ok, you are sick
if you believe in you diagnoses
you have lost hope in believing that you are not sick but
going through change and it is normal
who can cure the sicknesss the person that has gone through sickness and cure himself
thats who
the Buddha cure the biggest sickness birth and death
so you have come the right place.
it is by taking less you cure, not by taking same or more.
don't let go of the believe that you normal and every person goes through change
Gena1480
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:30 am

manasikara wrote:
imaginos wrote:As Ajahn Chah used to say, the blind and the deaf cannot be enlightened because they don't have access to things to sitimulate wisdom/insight development.


Hi imaginos,

I'm a bit torn here, as although you have expressed appreciation of my post, I must take issue with the above, which is not true and therefore I can't believe that Ajahn Chah said it. In this modern day and age, there are plenty of resources for blind, deaf or even persons both blind AND deaf, to learn and master a language to the degree necessary to be able to access Dhamma teachings.

Furthermore, if a person was blind, they would still have four other senses (five if you count the intellect) as a working-ground for the cultivation of insight. Same for a person who was deaf.



Thanks Manasikara, I appreciate the post. Thinking that the sound is the only real way to communicate would be nothing but the five aggregates wrapping up around within themselves... that isn't real liberation.

You only need to look at the people who are already communicating outside of it. They're signing. They're unbounded in at least this way. So, if you ever have an opportunity to practice with one, then please do so... you might develop quite an insight.

:anjali:
User avatar
beeblebrox
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby manas » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:22 am

beeblebrox wrote:
You only need to look at the people who are already communicating outside of it. They're signing. They're unbounded in at least this way. So, if you ever have an opportunity to practice with one, then please do so... you might develop quite an insight.

:anjali:


What I have seen of sign language, I have liked alot. I have a few questions about it, maybe we could start a new topic though, as it isn't the right place here.

metta
User avatar
manas
 
Posts: 2136
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:37 am

Hello manasikara,

Something Ajahn Chah said using blind and deaf as an example:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8412#p131381

It would be good if imaginos could give us the exact quote and reference he is referring to.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7645
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby nobody12345 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:57 pm

manasikara wrote:
imaginos wrote:As Ajahn Chah used to say, the blind and the deaf cannot be enlightened because they don't have access to things to sitimulate wisdom/insight development.


Hi imaginos,

I'm a bit torn here, as although you have expressed appreciation of my post, I must take issue with the above, which is not true and therefore I can't believe that Ajahn Chah said it. In this modern day and age, there are plenty of resources for blind, deaf or even persons both blind AND deaf, to learn and master a language to the degree necessary to be able to access Dhamma teachings.

Furthermore, if a person was blind, they would still have four other senses (five if you count the intellect) as a working-ground for the cultivation of insight. Same for a person who was deaf.

I say this in goodwill, but please consider how the above statement you made might be perceived by a person with a physical impairment visiting this forum.

:anjali:


Hi manasikara and others.

No problem.
I will provide with direct quote and page number later.
I believe it was from the Teachings of Ajahn Chah that I read.
(That is the PDF book of 725 pages long)
If it was not from that PDF book, then it was from one of my collection of his books.
Either way, I will track it down and provide the name of the book, page, and direct quote.

However, I need to emphasize something.
The way I understood Ajahn Chah's intention, he did not say it to talk down the impaired.
He stated it to arouse strong determination from his disciples to deal with various difficult expriences of daily life with more conviction.
From the context, it was clear to me that he mentioned it to draw the attention of his disciple that the various difficult challenges are great objects/experiences to improve and exercise wisdom.
So if you look at the statement like a slice of pie, it might look awkward.
But the point of the statement was supreme when it was understood from the overall context and its audience.
To be honest, the very thought of talking down the impaired did not even come up in my head when I read it and contemplated its meaning.

Anyway, no worry.
I will track it down and provide you with detail.

Metta.
nobody12345
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby Buckwheat » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:25 pm

Skeptic wrote:...I have decided to be abstinent Yesterday....


Congratulations!! I am happy for you, Skeptic. :anjali:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby nobody12345 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:56 pm

Ok, it was not from PDF book.
(I used search option on it and couldn’t find it)
So I looked into the printed books that I have.
However, after sometime, I gave up because it’s simply too much time consuming.
So instead I did google search to find it since lots of Dhamma talk of Ajahn Chah is on the web already.
So I found the one and link is attached below.

The words, ‘the blind’ and ‘the deaf’ have been highlighted so you will read it easily.
However I have to admit that the wording is different than I remembered and it’s on my fault.
As you can read from the last part of quote, the exact statement is
“…If that was the case then blind and deaf people would be enlightened.”
You can read the whole quote to get the context.

Also I need to draw the attention that Ajahn Chah sometimes used the word peace instead of liberation/enlightenment in certain occasions.
And I provided quote below with highlighted words for your easy reading.
(The content is identical with the link)

And if you took offense in any way, I am the one who is responsible, not Ajahn Chah.
Ajahn Chah’s Dhamma talk was wholesome and supreme and it was me who mentioned it with unskillful manner so it generated misunderstanding.

http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=ajahn+chah+the+deaf+blind&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=ajahn+chah+the+deaf+blind&d=4756118314485933&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=13a73ef8,a62fd790&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=pFzFNLgviK5IGTdbinGnJA--

Quote from link: “But actually, if we live very quietly in places where nothing arises, can wisdom arise? Would we be aware of anything? Think about it. If our eye didn't see sights, what would that be like? If the nose didn't experience smells, what would that be like? If the tongue didn't experience flavors what would that be like? If the body didn't experience feelings at all, what would that be like? To be like that would be like being a blind and deaf man, one whose nose and tongue had fallen off and who was completely numb with paralysis. Would there be anything there? And yet people tend to think that if they went somewhere where nothing happened they would find peace. Well, I've thought like that myself, I once thought that way . . .
If we think that peace lies where there are no sensations would wisdom arise? Would there be causal and resultant conditions? Would we have anything to practice with? If we blame the sounds, then where there are sounds we can't be peaceful. We think that place is no good. Wherever there are sights we say that's not peaceful. If that's the case then to find peace we'd have to be one whose senses have all died, blind, and deaf. I thought about this . . . "Hmm. This is strange. Suffering arises because of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. So should we be blind? If we didn't see anything at all maybe that would be better. One would have no defilements arising if one were blind, or deaf. Is this the way it is?" . . . But, thinking about it, it wall all wrong. If that was the case then blind and deaf people would be enlightened.”
nobody12345
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Drugs: A tool, useful for good and bad?

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:23 pm

Thanks, Imaginos. That seems to be the same quote that Cooran linked to... it makes more sense. The Buddha said almost the same thing (quoted in the same thread, by MikeNZ). Neither of them were saying that a deaf person can't be enlightened... just that the deafness in itself wouldn't be a sufficient condition. In the Buddha's case, it was only a refutation for someone's method of blocking out the sound.

You can extrapolate that to the topic of this thread, by the way... it should be obvious that using any mind-altering substance wouldn't be a sufficient condition in itself... or else everyone who's ever used them would be already enlightened.

It doesn't mean that anyone who's used them would never be enlightened. It's all in how you view your experience... whether you end up being attached to the experience or not (as a permanent source of happiness, for example)... whether you gain insight from it or not... etc. All of that will be due to the D.O. of the person's make-up. (Dependent Origination... starting with the extent of that person's knowledge of the four noble truths... i.e., 1) what is suffering; 2) what causes it; 3) when will be that suffering's ending; 4) and then discovering what kind of path leads to that ending.)

:anjali:
User avatar
beeblebrox
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Previous

Return to Ethical Conduct

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests