Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
DarkDream
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:25 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby DarkDream » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:09 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:25 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:48 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:56 am

If by determinism, there is no choice, the Buddha did not teach that. If by free will, one's choice is free of any conditioning, the Buddha did not teach that.

"This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond."
SN I, 38.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3670
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:42 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby cooran » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:30 am

Hello Venerable Pesala,

Could it be that he wasn't aware of it? I have been taught that Omniscience doesn't mean knowing everything, always, and at all times.

Omniscience is 1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight 2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge. Omniscience doesn't mean having psychic powers ~ many beings attain those. The Buddha explains below just what omniscience means in the context of a Sammasambuddha.

The omniscience of the Buddha is covered in the suttas ~
Majjhima Nikaya 71 Tevijjavacchagotta Sutta 'To Vacchagotta on the
Threefold True Knowledge'

"Venerable sir, I have heard this: "The recluse Gotama claims to be
omniscient and all-seeing, to have complete knowledge and vision
thus: "Whether I am walking or standing or sleeping or awake,
knowledge and vision are continuously and uninterruptedly present to
me." Venerable sir, do those who speak thus say what has been said
by the Blessed One, and not misrepresent him with what is contrary to
fact? Do they explain in accordance with the Dhamma in such a way
that nothing which provides a ground for censure can be legitimately
deduced from their assertion?"

"Vaccha, those who say thus do not say what has been said by me, but
misrepresent me with what is untrue and contrary to fact."

note 714 says: MA explains that even though part of the statement is
valid, the Buddha rejects the entire statement because of the portion
that is invalid. The part of the statement that is valid is the
assertion that the Buddha is omniscient and all-seeing; the part that
is excessive is the assertion that knowledge and vision are
continuously present to him.
According to the Theravada tradition
the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are
potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything
simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know.


At MN 90.8 the Buddha says that it is possible to know and see all, though
not simultaneously, and at AN 4.24/ii.24 he claims to know all that
can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognised, which is understood by the
Theravada tradition as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified
sense. See too in this connection Miln 102-7.
--------------------------
Majjhima Nikaya 90 Kannakatthala Sutta 'At Kannakatthala'

5. "Then King Pasenadi of Kosala said to the Blessed One: 'Venerable
sir, I have heard this: 'The recluse Gotama says "There is no recluse
or brahmin who is omniscient and all-seeing, who can claim to have
complete knowledge and vision; that is not possible." 'Venerable
sir, do those who speak thus say what has been said by the Blessed
One, and not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact? Do they
explain in accordance with the Dhamma in such a way that nothing that
provides a ground for censure can be legitimately deduced from their
assertions?"

"Great King, those who speak thus do not say what has been said by
me, but misrepresent me with what is untrue and contrary to
fact." <<<<<snip>>>>>>

"I recall having actually made the utterance in this way, great
king. 'There is no recluse or brahmin who knows all, who sees all,
simultaneously; that is not possible'.

note 846 says: MA: There is no one who can know and see all - past,
present and future - with one act of mental adverting, with one act of
consciousness; thus this problem is discussed in terms of a single
act of consciousness (ekacitta). On the question of the kind of
omniscience the Theravada tradition attributes to the Buddha, see n.
714 above.

A few old threads (at E-sangha) discussing the subject -
In the thread "Does an Arhat know everything?"

The Arahant


metta and respect
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Mexicali
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:12 pm

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby Mexicali » Sun May 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Nibbida, thanks :goodpost:
"We do not embrace reason at the expense of emotion. We embrace it at the expense of self-deception."
-- Herbert Muschamp

User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby christopher::: » Mon May 04, 2009 4:06 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 04, 2009 5:01 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 04, 2009 5:07 am

If I can make an observation about this whole thing, that has probably been made before:

There is a feeling I sometimes get in these conversations that "it would be unfair if X was due to past kamma". It seems to me that is a confused view. As I read it, it is not possible for us to tell what is or isn't caused by past kamma, so to speculate that person "Y is in this situation because of Z" is silly. However, if one accepts the concept of kamma then clearly some bad stuff is due to past kamma. It's not "unfair", it's how the universe works.

Also, it seems to me that the point of the teaching is to point out that the bad things happening to us (or others) may be due to past kamma, so it might be prudent to avoid bad kamma in the future.

Mike

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Huai Bong, Lamphun

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon May 04, 2009 5:12 am


User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby robertk » Mon May 04, 2009 5:36 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 04, 2009 5:47 am


User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby christopher::: » Mon May 04, 2009 5:49 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

User avatar
Mexicali
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:12 pm

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby Mexicali » Fri May 08, 2009 6:16 pm

I don't get the impression that the Buddha was "omniscient" in the godlike, western sense. For several weeks after attaining Buddhahood, he was not sure what to do with the insights he'd gained and had not gone out to teach the dhamma. Omniscience would mean he could have begun, instantly. Similarly, logically, there would be no pacekabuddhas if realization bestowed an inability to not know things; they would all have the ability to teach dhamma if they were omniscient.
"We do not embrace reason at the expense of emotion. We embrace it at the expense of self-deception."
-- Herbert Muschamp

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3670
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Kamma and child prostitution -- blaming the victim?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri May 08, 2009 7:26 pm

There again, since he was Omniscient, he would have known that to start teaching prematurely or to teach the wrong person would be ineffective. Even an ordinary person knows the right time to eat a mango, which is not necessarily as soon as one plucks it from the tree, or brings it back from the market.

In fact, the Buddha met a few individuals after his Enlightenment and before teaching the Dhammacakka Sutta (the first discourse). (Burma?) offered honey cakes, and the Buddha gave them some hairs.

He also met a wanderer named , and declared his Buddhahood to him, but he did not teach him the Dhamma at that time.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)


Return to “Discovering Theravāda”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine