Vipassana vs Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Buckwheat »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
Let's be careful here. It sounds like some Vipassana meditation groups are just Theravada (like my local group where Vipassana = Theravada) while there are other groups who remove the Buddhism from the meditation method. But this would clearly not be a Buddhist school as they have removed the Buddhism to become a secular group. I assume they do this to draw a wider audience such as business persons and teachers who simply want the mundane benefits of meditation. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as it's open and understood.

It seems to me Goenka clearly falls under the Vipassana = Theravada category, and if anybody wants to criticize Goenka's methods, that is a topic for another thread.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Are you Theravada?

Why would it matter if he has or has not. If you look at his teachings, they come directly out of Theravada orthodoxy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Why would it matter if he has or has not.
Only from the perspective that it makes your falsification false.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Why would it matter if he has or has not.
Only from the perspective that it makes your falsification false.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What you are saying makes no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

http://pariyatti.org/AboutPariyatti/tab ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So the answer then is yes, easy.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Richard Cunningham Patterson Jr's duck test:
  • Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Fede »

(Which one....The Vipassana duck, or the Theravada duck?)
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brizzy
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:58 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Mr Goenka says you can be a Hindu, Moslem, Christian, Jain or Buddhist and still receive the benefits of 'vipassana meditation'. So no, I don't think Mr Goenka would describe himself as a Theravadin or even a Buddhist. Mr Goenka says that all 'ism's' like Buddhism lead to conflict. :jedi: (He may be right). I am personally intrigued by the notion of a practising Christian, Hindu etc. achieving stream entry without actually renouncing or losing their particular faith. 'Vipassana meditation' is taught by Mr Goenka as a non-sectarian everybody welcome form of meditation, which is fine in itself but I personally do not see it as representative of Theravada or the suttas.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Ben »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
I wonder how important this labeling is?

The following is from an interview published in Tricycle from a few years ago...
TRICYCLE. Do you think in the Buddhist societies today, where violence is being carried out, are they functioning with this
detachment or no?


SN GOENKA: If somebody says they are a Buddhist and that is all they do, then I say you are a devotee of Buddha, you are not
a follower of Buddha. It’s a real difference. You have great devotion towards Buddha, you say, “Lord
Buddha, Lord Buddha, how wonderful!”
But you don’t practice. Whether we keep calling ourselves Christian or Hindu or Muslim, it makes no difference.
A follower of the Buddha follows the teachings: sila, samadhi, prajna. Those people who simply call themselves
Buddhists are not living the life of Buddha. That is why I don’t use the word “Buddhist” or “Buddhism.”
Buddha never taught any isms. In all his words, and the commentaries, which number thousands of pages, the
word “Buddhism” is not there. So this all started much later, when Buddha’s teaching began to settle.
I don’t know when it started, how it started, calling it Buddhism, but the day it happened it devalued the teaching
of Buddha. It was a universal teaching, and that made it sectarian, as if to say that Buddhism is only for
Buddhists, like Hinduism is for Hindus, Islam is for Muslims. Dharma is for all.
Interstingly, what SN Goenka teaches is indistinguishable from what his teacher, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, taught. U Ba Khin described what he taught as Buddhism. As did Saya Thet Gyi and Ledi Sayadaw before him.

I understand why SN Goenka doesn't label himself or what he teaches as "Buddhism" or "Theravada" and I have absolutely no difficulty with it. As far as I am concerned - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck then its a safe bet that its a duck. Irrespective of how the duck may describe him or herself as. (Apologies to Patterson's duck test).
As I said earlier...
I wonder how important this labeling is?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Passavipa wrote:....but did you consider my question about sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī (step 3) and cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī (step 7 of anapanasati)? Do they relate to vipassana? What do they mean, exactly? Your guess is probably as good or as poor as mine.
:)
It's an interesting question. I've read a number of commentaries on the 4 tetrads, and the general picture seems to be of a progression from samatha to vipassana. But since the 4 tetrads are based on the 4 frames they could all be viewed as vipassana.

Spiny
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Fede wrote:(Which one....The Vipassana duck, or the Theravada duck?)
They are not different. Why would you think that they are?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply