the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

the great vegetarian debate

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:39 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:49 pm


User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:38 pm

Last edited by David N. Snyder on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: [edit: Mod note, this topic has turned into meat vs. veggies again, so this has been merged with the existing 'great' (as in large) topic]
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

David2
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Germany

Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby David2 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:25 pm

Animals are sentient beings, too.


Birgit
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:17 pm

Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby Birgit » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 am

Poor sheep! Poor animal! When we eat some meat or drink some milk, we don´t even think of their suffering! And our governments subsidize the intensive mass animal farming, althoug meat consumption is damaging the climate and causing hunger in the world. With corn you can feed ten times as many people as you can feed, if you give the same amount of corn animals,that people eat, as food.
You, just as you are, can meet life on its own terms, taking delight in that which is enjoyable without clinging to it while also living with what is difficult and unpleasant without contracting into resistance to it. To dance with life is to meet life on its terms to be at ease, even enjoy the ever-changing interplay without clinging. Philip Moffit: Dancing with Life page 91/92

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby manas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:51 am

I have not clicked on the youtube, as I get too upset about such things. I will just say yes, it's very sad how we treat our fellow animals.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:14 am

Birgit,
It is too bad that the people who raise animals often treat them badly. I help my wife raise cows and we treat them very well. If more people who had compassion for animals did the raising of animals then the animals in the world would over all be better treated....unfortunately for animals many of the people who have compassion for animals become vegetarians and then do not want to raise animals....sad but true.....
chownah

manasikara,
My wife and I take care of two dogs who live with us. I am pretty sure that they do not think of us as "ogres"......in fact quite the opposite.....I think that they think of my wife as that wonderful person who gives them food a couple of times a day EVERY DAY!!!!.....and they seem to like me too since they come to me for recognition and attention....but I don't know why they come to me since I don't feed them.....I guess that Ajahn Mun never met the dogs who live with us...but I must be wrong about this because who am I to disagree with Ajahn Mun?.....
chownah

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby manas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:41 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

Birgit
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:17 pm

Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Postby Birgit » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:40 am

You, just as you are, can meet life on its own terms, taking delight in that which is enjoyable without clinging to it while also living with what is difficult and unpleasant without contracting into resistance to it. To dance with life is to meet life on its terms to be at ease, even enjoy the ever-changing interplay without clinging. Philip Moffit: Dancing with Life page 91/92

Birgit
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:17 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Birgit » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:42 am

chownah
I thought of you and your wife raising your cows on a nice, little farm, on which they can graze on a wide greenland. I think you love your animals and do all the best for them as long as they live. And then, when the time comes, you have to give them to the butchery, you are very sad. But you have to do so, because its your job. You have to live from that job!
This job exists, because people still want to eat meat and to drink milk, although they needn´t.
You do a good job for the animals, because you give them the possibility to have a good life, before they have to die much to early. You prevent them from being tortured in the industrial mass animal farming, in which no human being is worrying about their fate and in which some human beings take delight in torturing them very cruelly.
I urgently wish that some day people don´t want to eat meat and to drink milk anymore. They will be more healthy then and the living animals will die of old age. There will not live many animals like cows, pigs or geese then, but there will be much less animal suffering.
Till then, in an unfortunately far future, do your good job and give them a happy (very short) life. They will be very grateful to you for your love.
Birgit :smile:
You, just as you are, can meet life on its own terms, taking delight in that which is enjoyable without clinging to it while also living with what is difficult and unpleasant without contracting into resistance to it. To dance with life is to meet life on its terms to be at ease, even enjoy the ever-changing interplay without clinging. Philip Moffit: Dancing with Life page 91/92

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:00 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:16 am


User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:37 am

Hi, Chownah.

My experience with a vegan/vegetarian diet comes from Dr. Dean Ornish's program for atherosclerosis reversal diet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Ornish

http://www.nutrition-health-articles.or ... erosis.php

label it what you want. It has been since 1998 that I went from having both main cardiac arteries blocked > 95% to surviving a disease that has a life expectancy of three years.

Ornish pushes vegan, but does allow use of fish periodically, which makes him a vegetarian.

Whatever he is, I recommend his change in lifestyle approach to those who wish to extend their lives and to live out the rest of their years in good health.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:18 am

Ron-The-Elder,
I looked at the link for Dean Ornish and the word vegan is never used in the article. I do see that Ornish was way down on the list of co-authors for an article or book about the adequacy of a vegan diet but vegan is not mentioned in the article.
The article about reversing atherosclerosis does not contain the word "vegan" at all.
It doesn't seem like these articles do much to support the notion of long term health benefits for a vegan diet.
Also please note that usually the term "vegetarian" does not include the eating of fish....and that I would say that it is rare that you would find a person who calls themself a vegetarian and who also eats fish.
chownah

User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Fede » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:46 am

I've met plenty of people who tell me "I'm vegetarian but I eat fish". Plenty. As if, because the creature is not a land mammal, has no legs and no discernible identifiable qualities, it exempts it from any carnal category.... :roll:

I even had a girl tell me she is a strict vegetarian - but she eats chicken....
What the heck was all that about? :jawdrop:

I actually stopped eating meat at the beginning of Lent, this year, on Medical grounds, but have rapidly adopted more of a personally-moral stance, during the intervening time....

I was watching a cookery programme - on Christmas day, of all times -fronted by a famous 'celeb-chef' called Gordon Ramsay. during this programme, he showed features by other chefs, preparing for their own celebrations.
one particular chef, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, was preparing a traditional medieval banquet, complete with goose stuffed with other progressively smaller birds. He's a back-to-basics chef - so he actively selected all his ingredients from livestock. As if that wasn't a bad enough thing to contemplate - he and a bunch of pals went squid-fishing.
i had recently seen a programme on squid and octopus, and what extraordinarily intelligent creatures they are; how they communicate, adapt and learn new information quickly, how colour-changes and textures of their skins are used for communication, mating, camouflage.... and here was this bunch of oiks hauling some truly spectacular and beautiful specimens out of the water, to eat them.

I wept, I actually wept.

I'm vegetarian.
And as a friend of mine clarifies, I don't eat anything that has a mother.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:38 pm


User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:44 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:09 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:07 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Fede » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:51 am

Ron - quit being a smarty-pants.

'Mother Earth' is figurative; Any creature on this planet, has a physical biological mother.

There is a clear distinction, and if common sense does not prevail, you might as well suggest you cannot possibly drink water that might have come from a natural spring that is, in turn, the "fruit of Mother Earth's loins".

By all means be strict.
But let's not get anal.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/


Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine

cron