How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

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mikenz66
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Chris,

Perhaps I wasn't clear,
Chris wrote:Hello Mike, all,
I disagree. The Lay people are not meant to be adoring 'yes' men and women.
I never said that lay people should be 'yes' men/women.

If I thought a particular temple/monk was not good I would not support that particular temple/monk, as in your quote.

But I don't think it is would be helpful to build up negative feelings by dwelling on it, or to be overly critical of some of the ways things have developed in various places.

Mike
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Dhammanando
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi JC,
i may be wrong or this could be a mahayana holdover but isnt there a difference in breaking a precept and not being able to keep a precept?
From the example that you then give, I think the distinction you are making would be more accurately described as having to endure some inconvenience or hardship as a result of keeping one's precepts versus not having to endure any.
it would be silly to think a monk cant use money to buy food if there was no other option.
How would there not be another option? If you're referring to a place in which nobody ever offers almsfood, then that would simply be an unsuitable place for a Vinaya-observant bhikkhu to live. And so there is in fact an option: move somewhere else.

On the other hand, if it’s a place where almsfood is hard to come by but at least some is obtainable, then the teaching given in the Vanapatthasutta (MN. 17) and the Sevanasutta (AN. iv. 365) is applicable.
  • from the Vanapatthasutta

    “Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives in some jungle thicket. While he is living there his unestablished mindfulness does not become established, his unconcentrated mind does not become concentrated, his undestroyed taints do not come to destruction, he does not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life that should be obtained by one gone forth —robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites— are hard to come by. The bhikkhu should consider thus: ‘I am living in this jungle thicket. While I am living here my unestablished mindfulness does not become established, my unconcentrated mind does not become concentrated, my undestroyed taints do not come to destruction, I do not attain the unattained supreme security from bondage; and also the requisites of life that should be obtained by one gone forth —robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites— are hard to come by.’ That bhikkhu should depart from that jungle thicket that very night or that very day; he should not continue living there.”
In short, if the place is both bad for obtaining requisites and bad for practice, then move on. The sutta then continues with the following permutations:

2. Good for requisites, bad for practice: leave at once.
3. Bad for requisites, good for practice: stay put for now.
4. Good for requisites, good for practice: stay put for as long as life lasts.

The same is then repeated for bhikkhus living in locations other than jungle thickets.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by DNS »

Dhammanando wrote: 2. Good for requisites, bad for practice: leave at once.
3. Bad for requisites, good for practice: stay put for now.
4. Good for requisites, good for practice: stay put for as long as life lasts.
Hi Bhante, all,

Then it would appear that a monk that receives alms on nearly all days of the month, but not all, might fall under #2 above, bad for requisites but good for practice so it is okay to stay put for now.

So could such a monk store some food as necessary for the days when there are no alms? Or would it be a modern interpretation / convenience to do so?

I know that purchasing and cooking the items is definitely a modern interpretation at best, but what if a lay steward purchased the items and/or cooked them and placed them in the refrigerator for a later date not as a regular thing, but for the few days when there are no alms?

I know these are not issues in Buddhist countries or even in some non-Buddhist countries where there is plenty of support, but for some places in non-Buddhist lands, this can be a problem / issue.
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Tex
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by Tex »

Follow-up question on requisites -- what about medical care? I understand from Bhante Dhammanando's malaria issue that there was a hospital in Thailand to handle monastics' major health issues, but what about here in The States? I'm sure free clinics could handle a lot of issues, but what about something like cancer that could require extremely lengthy and expensive treatments? Do Western bhikkhus qualify for any sort of health insurance assistance from the government, etc?
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cooran
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by cooran »

Hello Tex,

In Australia, monks have a medicare card as do all citizens, which allows free hospital, and general practitioner care. Britain is similar.

metta
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by kc2dpt »

On a related note, I remember a Sri Lanken monk I know needed glasses. He got the examination from one of the lay supporters who was also a doctor. He got the glasses from donation I think. This was in the USA. Then again, the whole reason the temple was established there was to support a local population of Sri Lankens. So this was a case of monks establishing themselves in a place which had both suitable support and also lots of people who knew nothing about Buddhism. Thus they could be supported and also spread the Buddhadhamma. :clap:
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi David,
TheDhamma wrote:So could such a monk store some food as necessary for the days when there are no alms? Or would it be a modern interpretation / convenience to do so?
It would be a modern interpretation. On a bad day for almsfood a monk is supposed to simply endure and remind himself: "It isn't for the sake of requisites that one goes forth into the homeless life." After all, fasting for a day or two, or even a week or two, is really no big deal for a person in good health. In British prisons when the IRA terrorists go on hunger strike it usually takes 60-70 days before they snuff it.
I know that purchasing and cooking the items is definitely a modern interpretation at best, but what if a lay steward purchased the items and/or cooked them and placed them in the refrigerator for a later date not as a regular thing, but for the few days when there are no alms?
That's okay provided that (i) the monks don't instruct anyone to do this for them, (ii) the refrigerator isn't in their living quarters, and (iii) the food is freshly offered on the day it is eaten.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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AlaskanDhamma
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by AlaskanDhamma »

Here in Alaska, it is much too cold in the winter for bindabaht(spelling may be off there, sorrry). So most of the lay community comes and offers food in the mornings indoors. Then I think even in the summer as it got warmer, it just became habit, so we keep it that way. I know of a Wat in California that has regular bindabaht in their neighborhood because of the high Thai population. It may have already been mentioned, as I can't remember the name of it right now. Sorry, I'll try to get back with you on that. I know it's featured in a Dhamma video called Fearless Mountain though.
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by DNS »

Dhammanando wrote:
That's okay provided that (i) the monks don't instruct anyone to do this for them, (ii) the refrigerator isn't in their living quarters, and (iii) the food is freshly offered on the day it is eaten.
Hi Bhante,

Okay, thanks! That shouldn't be too hard for lay people to make that arrangement since that scenario works.
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by jcsuperstar »

AlaskanDhamma wrote:Here in Alaska, it is much too cold in the winter for bindabaht(spelling may be off there, sorrry). So most of the lay community comes and offers food in the mornings indoors. Then I think even in the summer as it got warmer, it just became habit, so we keep it that way. I know of a Wat in California that has regular bindabaht in their neighborhood because of the high Thai population. It may have already been mentioned, as I can't remember the name of it right now. Sorry, I'll try to get back with you on that. I know it's featured in a Dhamma video called Fearless Mountain though.
the monks here never went on alms rounds, they thought it was illegal. they were surprized when i told then there is no law against walking around with a bowl (alms rounds are not begging since a monk cant ask for anything). i can only think of two monestaries in america where the monks go for alms rounds, there may be more though.

ps im glad my copy of Fearless Mountain is getting around...
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by AlaskanDhamma »

LOL. Good to know that story. I never knew that about them thinking it was illegal. I guess it makes sense, considering the laws here about beggars, but yes as you said, they aren't begging. And yes, Ajahn asked me to show Trevor a copy of Fearless Mountain. It is a good video for beginners seeking basic information.
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by gavesako »

http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2009/05/alms-and-human.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A humorous accout of gathering alms in Britain while on tudong wandering. :broke:
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by Jechbi »

Wow. :anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

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Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: How do monks in non-Buddhist countries obtain food, etc?

Post by appicchato »

acinteyya wrote:weird...
Wierd?...what in life isn't?... :popcorn:
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