No there isn't anything wrong with that and I would ignore any interpretations presented (regardless of their air of authority) which increase your confusion rather than decrease it.Buckwheat wrote:Thanissaro's approach says the metaphysical question leads to quarreling and should be put aside, and this thread may be evidence. His method is clearly intended to, in the end, eradicate any sense of self. Approaching anatta per Thanissaro made sense to me when I first heard it, because before that I spent years being mystified on how to incorporate anatta into my practice, and it once led me in a dangerous direction in my confusion. Now I see it as a task, and I see at least the first handful of steps that I need to work on. Is there something wrong with that? Seriously, I would like to know so that I can avoid any pitfalls.
On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Hi,
Thanks for this essay, it's insightful.ancientbuddhism wrote:Kalupahana was making a similar point in The Notion of suffering in early Buddhism compared with some reflections of early Wittgenstein
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
I'm not sure who you're addressing, but if it's me, sure, I agree with that paragraph. But it doesn't mean that all interpretations are equally credible.Buckwheat wrote:I'm too dense to follow your above arguments, so I'm looking for another approach so that I can appreciate your viewpoint. Do you agree with this paragraph?
I don't have the time right now to critique Ven. Ṭhānissaro's views in detail. There are probably other threads which deal with some of these issues. Just one example (related to both anatta and consciousness): Ṭhānissaro's latent fire theory presented and elaborated in Mind Like Fire Unbound cannot be sustained. The fire metaphor most commonly refers to the three fires of passion, aggression, and delusion. If the Indian Buddhist understanding of fire was really that an extinguished fire goes into a "latent state," then these three fires could re-combust within an arahant's mind as long as there is fuel remaining (i.e. saupādisesa nibbānadhātu: nibbāna element with fuel remaining). Of course, this would render nibbāna quite meaningless.Buckwheat wrote:indicate precisely what is wrong with Thanissaro's approach?
Yes, we have to proceed one step at a time.Buckwheat wrote:Now I see it as a task, and I see at least the first handful of steps that I need to work on.
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Thanks, Nana. Can I ask you one more thing? I'm not so concerned with your critique of Thanissaro's views, I'm concerned with your critique of his method, his approach of stripping away self identities by looking at them one by one and letting go of them, except for holding onto the relatively healthy ones until you're pure enough to let go of those as well. Do you see anything wrong with his approach in that respect? From the last line of your previous post, I'm thinking you are OK with it.Ñāṇa wrote:I'm not sure who you're addressing, but if it's me, sure, I agree with that paragraph. But it doesn't mean that all interpretations are equally credible.Buckwheat wrote:I'm too dense to follow your above arguments, so I'm looking for another approach so that I can appreciate your viewpoint. Do you agree with this paragraph?
I don't have the time right now to critique Ven. Ṭhānissaro's views in detail. There are probably other threads which deal with some of these issues. Just one example (related to both anatta and consciousness): Ṭhānissaro's latent fire theory presented and elaborated in Mind Like Fire Unbound cannot be sustained. The fire metaphor most commonly refers to the three fires of passion, aggression, and delusion. If the Indian Buddhist understanding of fire was really that an extinguished fire goes into a "latent state," then these three fires could re-combust within an arahant's mind as long as there is fuel remaining (i.e. saupādisesa nibbānadhātu: nibbāna element with fuel remaining). Of course, this would render nibbāna quite meaningless.Buckwheat wrote:indicate precisely what is wrong with Thanissaro's approach?
Yes, we have to proceed one step at a time.Buckwheat wrote:Now I see it as a task, and I see at least the first handful of steps that I need to work on.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Hi to all contributors to this topic.
Thanks for keeping it so interesting.
I'm struggling to find time to contribute but there are tons of savory things (especially Nana's link to the Wittgenstein/Buddha article) which I hope to find time for asap.
Good-will to you all.
Daniel
Thanks for keeping it so interesting.
I'm struggling to find time to contribute but there are tons of savory things (especially Nana's link to the Wittgenstein/Buddha article) which I hope to find time for asap.
Good-will to you all.
Daniel
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
I think there is really no other way to proceed. We all have to start from where we are, and begin by committing and re-committing to developing appropriate ethical conduct (sīla) and meditative composure (samādhi). This already involves a significant degree of focus and dedication: choosing to go for refuge in the three jewels; choosing to undertake training according to the five and/or eight precepts; choosing to develop renunciation and live a life of voluntary simplicity; choosing to practice sense restraint; and choosing to commit to a dedicated daily practice schedule. It can take quite some time to establish these aspects of gradual training and really begin to integrate them. And given that much of this will already challenge many preconceived notions and contemporary social and cultural beliefs and customs, it can be confusing at times, and even somewhat disorienting if we don't have the support of admirable, like-minded friends (kalyāṇamitta). Therefore, all of this is most skillfully approached through the orientation of the four noble truths. This is the view that concerns us as practitioners. Any other views are quite irrelevant.Buckwheat wrote:I'm concerned with your critique of his method, his approach of stripping away self identities by looking at them one by one and letting go of them, except for holding onto the relatively healthy ones until you're pure enough to let go of those as well. Do you see anything wrong with his approach in that respect?
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
, Nana.
Metta,
Scott
Metta,
Scott
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: soul, do you have any?
Hi ancientbuddhism,
good-will
Daniel
Where? This is only the third post in this topic.ancientbuddhism wrote:If you have been following along here and there,
Where? I have never heard, read or seen Ven. Thanissaro make this specific claim.ancientbuddhism wrote:But when its central thesis is that the Buddha never denied the ‘Self’ (= Upaniṣadic ātman),
good-will
Daniel
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Hi ancientbuddhism,ancientbuddhism wrote:By congratulating manasikara’s misunderstanding of what I have said, you only confirm your own. Do you have any thoughts on the points I raised?danieLion wrote:Precisely.manasikara wrote:
If you read this sutta {MN 2], then reread 'No-self or Not-self?' again, you will see that Venerable Thanissaro is right on track regarding anatta. I have never read him remotely suggesting that there is any kind of eternal upanishadic-style 'self' anywhere in existence, and I am surprised that anyone could think that!
D
Those were points?
good-will
Daniel
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Perhaps you should make the time, otherwise you'll keep misunderstanding and misrepresenting him. Ven. Thanissaro does not have aÑāṇa wrote:I don't have the time right now to critique Ven. Ṭhānissaro's views in detail.
Ñāṇa wrote:latent fire theory
or teach that
only. He balances this observation with many other observations.Ñāṇa wrote:the Indian Buddhist understanding of fire was really that an extinguished fire goes into a "latent state,"
Where? I can't find any and all the links cited so far in this topic are loops or dead-ends.Ñāṇa wrote:There are probably other threads which deal with some of these issues.
good-will
Daniel
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
His views haven't been misrepresented in this thread.danieLion wrote:Perhaps you should make the time, otherwise you'll keep misunderstanding and misrepresenting him.
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
Hi Nana,Ñāṇa wrote:His views haven't been misrepresented in this thread.danieLion wrote:Perhaps you should make the time, otherwise you'll keep misunderstanding and misrepresenting him.
Thanissaro's main point was agree upon a few posts back. The rest is supporting material. As for the fire approach, it has been misrepresented. He indicates fire is used to invoke a sense of nirvana having "coolness" as opposed to life firey dukkha. Also, it is used to show that nirvana is not a place that you go to. From "A Verb for Nirvana" you can see that he is clear that nirvana is not a temporary dhamma:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Back in the days of the Buddha, nirvana (nibbana) had a verb of its own: nibbuti. It meant to "go out," like a flame. Because fire was thought to be in a state of entrapment as it burned — both clinging to and trapped by the fuel on which it fed — its going out was seen as an unbinding. To go out was to be unbound. Sometimes another verb was used — parinibbuti — with the "pari-" meaning total or all-around, to indicate that the person unbound, unlike fire unbound, would never again be trapped.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
I don't think that that was his main point.Buckwheat wrote:Thanissaro's main point was agree upon a few posts back.
No it hasn't.Buckwheat wrote:As for the fire approach, it has been misrepresented.
In the endnotes to MN 49 he also asserts that nibbāna is a form of consciousness:Buckwheat wrote:From "A Verb for Nirvana" you can see that he is clear that nirvana is not a temporary dhamma:
- Some have objected to the equation of this consciousness with nibbana, on the grounds that nibbana is no where else in the Canon described as a form of consciousness. Thus they have proposed that consciousness without surface be regarded as an arahant's consciousness of nibbana in meditative experience, and not nibbana itself.
- The Buddha describes his awakened knowledge in a variety of ways ... by describing an awakened consciousness that is not known by means of any of the six senses at all.... Some of these assertions — in particular, the assertion of a consciousness not mediated by any of the six senses — are extremely important dhamma lessons....
- The Buddha, knowing that there are two types of consciousness — the consciousness aggregate (viññāṇakkhandha), which is experienced in conjunction with the six sense media, and consciousness without surface (viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ), which is experienced independently of the six sense media....
His interpretation of nibbāna is very novel. It's also nonsense.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
This is precisely the issue B. santi/Kester was alluding to years ago cited here:
Bhikkhu Santi wrote:By teaching his extremely unique interpretation of nibbana, which is not as he claims supported by the Thai Kruba Ajahns, or at least not all of them by any means, he is effectively setting up one side of a bridge except for the keystone, then by teaching that the Buddha never taught that there is no ultimate self or essence he sets up the other half of the bridge. He leaves it to the extremely fertile imagination of biased ordinary beings to fill in the gap that "nibbaana is the ultimate self", which I've actually heard that he admits he believes in private. He bases this last point on Dhp. "all things are without-self (or, 'not self'), when one sees this with wisdom, then one turns away from suffering, this is the path of purification". So then I've heard that he says that this means that the perception "all dhammas are anatta" is just a part of the path of purification, it's not necessarily a fact that applies to the goal.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings
I also heard that Billy kissed Susan behind the gymnasium. Not even gonna fake a reference? How am I supposed to study these claims?ancientbuddhism wrote:This is precisely the issue B. santi/Kester was alluding to years ago cited here:
Bhikkhu Santi wrote:... which I've actually heard that he admits he believes in private. .... So then I've heard that he says ...
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.