Buddhism in Jain texts

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.

Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby piotr » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi,

I'm interested to know if there are available any Jain texts which describe Buddhists views. There are a lot of references to Jains in Pali texts, I'd like to read how Jains viewed Buddhists.
Last edited by piotr on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Hello piotr,

We have had a previous thread, but mostly we missed the point of the OP - so I’m not sure if it will contain anything to assist you:
buddhists in jain texts?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1955&p=25752

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Re: Buddhism is Jain texts

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:40 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

I'm interested to know if there are available any Jain texts which describe Buddhists views. There are a lot of references to Jains in Pali texts, I'd like to read how Jains viewed Buddhists.
I think you mean Buddhism in Jain texts.

The interesting thing is that the Jains lost much of their texts, which were then reconstructed. There is an interesting bit in the Digha (33) about the death of the Nigantha Nataputta and the turmoil it caused because the Jain texts were not well structured and learned.

As for Jain sutras referring to the Buddha, I do not know.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Buddhism is Jain texts

Postby piotr » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:54 pm

Hi,

Thanks, I haven't seen that thread before. Some material might be of use for me. :reading:
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby piotr » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Hi,

tiltbillings wrote:I think you mean Buddhism in Jain texts.


Yup, a typo. :embarassed: Corrected, thanks. :)
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:00 pm

Helo piotr,

A passing reference on dhammastudygroup:

‘’about jainism and buddhism, if one goes by texts then they are two
extremes. so there is great deal of difference. but strikingly the
discription of kaivalya, by lord mahavir, and nibbana by Lord buddha
(both have described in negative terms, and almost similarly) is very
much similar. further more there is quite a great deal of similarity
in the stories contained in the scriptures. the uttradhayana sutra of
jainism is quite similar to dhammapada. at certain places one feels
that either one of them is translation of another.
even the names and stories of pacchek buddhas are similar. a lots of
other stories as well. even some of the jatak stories of Buddha are
contained in jain texts.’’
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/72515

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:29 am

A Philological Approach to Buddhism by K.R. Norman

Look in Chap. IV. Buddhism and Regional Dialects, although the relationship of Jain and Buddhist texts to the study of MIA dialects is discussed throughout the book. Use .pdf search and most of these will show up.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby piotr » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:50 am

Hi,

Thank you all. :) I skimmed through A Philological Approach to Buddhism, but I couldn't find what interests me now the most. I'd like to verify ven. Ṭhānissaro words: in one of his talks he said that in Jain texts ancient Buddhists are pictured as those who never give categorical answer whether or not there is a self.
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby Moth » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:46 pm

According to Wikipedia...
The Pali texts mention the Buddha referring to the liberation of Mahavira (referred to as Niggantha Nataputta) at Pava

Can anyone confirm this?
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:55 pm

Moth wrote:According to Wikipedia...
The Pali texts mention the Buddha referring to the liberation of Mahavira (referred to as Niggantha Nataputta) at Pava

Can anyone confirm this?
What is meant is is his death.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby vitellius » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:56 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

I'm interested to know if there are available any Jain texts which describe Buddhists views. There are a lot of references to Jains in Pali texts, I'd like to read how Jains viewed Buddhists.


Dear Piotr,

If you are interested in Early Jain texts (Agamas - Svetambara canon), there is almost nothing about Buddhism there. As far as I know, there is only one story about a talk between a Buddhist monk and a Jain one. Unfortunately, I don't remember content of this conversation, although I remember that in this story ethical views that are quite contrary to any kind of Buddhism were ascribed to the Buddhist. This is what I learned from "Agama and Tripitaka: A Comparative Study of Lord Mahavira and Lord Buddha: Vol.I" (the title may be a bit different).

If you are as well interested in later Jain literature, there's a lot of references. A couple of instances are particularly interesting. First, comparison of Buddhist and Jain practices in the Yoga-drsti-samuccaya, translated as "Reconciling Yogas". Second, Buddhist (probably Theravada) - Jaina debate in classical Tamil literature: Tamil epics contain both Jaina and Buddhist representations of each other.

PS Piotr Balcerowicz of Warsaw University is a renowned scholar of Jainism.
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby plwk » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:37 am

Kundalakesi & Nilakesi and this & this and especially THIS
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby cooran » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:44 pm

plwk wrote:Kundalakesi & Nilakesi and this & this and especially THIS


Hello plwk,

I don't get the point of your last link ''THIS'':
http://amuletforums.com/sitemap/jains-s ... -t616.html

Would you care to expand your comments?

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby plwk » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:21 am

Greetings Cooran,

The OP's question was: if there are available any Jain texts which describe Buddhists views.
My response were those given links and especially the last link. Why?
Nilakesi is a Tamil Jain work which contains purported debates between a Jain nun, Nilakesi with 'prominent Buddhist personalities' on doctrinal matters.

Now back in E-Sangha, a member named 'vinodh' (also a member here on DW and on that amulet forum) posted on a discussion thread (that had a similar discussion on Buddhist teachings in Jain accounts) some translation work of the Nilakesi from Tamil to English so that we could get a glimpse into what transpired.

Since the ES crash, I have not been able to locate that thread other than finding the linked amulet forum thread that had a reproduction of that information. For those who didn't read, here's the reproduction here...it looks rather polemical and distorted...
The Jain literature doesn't say so
There is a Story in a Jain Epic, wherein the Jain Nun Nilakeshi, defeats Theri Kundalakeshi, Shariputra, Maudgalyayana, all in a row and at the end has a debate with the Bhagavan, and finally defeats him too
(The Arguments are very Interesting, may be I wil start a seperate thread for that)
At the end of the the debates, all agree to amend their ways and follow the Jain Dharma
This is the Jain side of the Story
Hi,
I am posting here the Debates of the Jain Nilakeshi with the Buddha and his Disciples.
Introduction
The details are from the Tamil Language, Epic Poem called Nilakeshi, which was the Jain response to the Buddhist Tamil Epic, Kundalakeshi.
The Tamil Buddhist Epic Kundalakeshi, was an Epic Poem written around 700 CE based on the life of Theri Kundalakeshi. In the Epic, Kundalakeshi converts to Buddhism, and goes around debating people of various sects and converting them to Buddhism.

The Story of Theri Kundalakesi
So, The Tamil Jains wrote another Epic called Nilakeshi as a response, countering the points raised by Kundalakeshi against the Jains.
Unfortunately, Kundalakeshi is not extant now, but Nilakeshi is.

Prologue
People try to sacrifice an Animal to satisfy Goddess Kali near a Temple. The Jain Monk who lives near that temple, advices the people not to sacrifice the Animals and instead pray to the Goddess Kali by Non-Violent methods. The People heed to the Monks advice, and sacrifice a Animal made up of clay instead of a Live Animal and go away.
Later, Goddess Kali comes with her companions to feast on the Sacrifice and find clay animals instead of a live Sacrifice. The Angered Goddess Kali, complains to the Queen of Kalis, Nilakeshi, about the Incident.
Nilakeshi with her minions, appear there and try to scare the Jain Monk. But ultimately fail in their Attempts. Then, the Jain Monk, preaches Jain Dharma to Nilakeshi. After, hearing the Jain Monks words, The Queen of Kalis, Nilakeshi, accepts the Jain Dharma and vows to preach the Jain Dharma around the world.
Summary of Debate with Theri Kundalakeshi
Meanwhile, Kundalakeshi appears near the City. As her usual sign of invitation for debates, she makes e a mound of sand and stucks a branch in it. Nilakeshi coming there, accept her offer for a Debate.

Nilakeshi: Expound your Religion.
Kundalakeshi: The Fundamentals of my religion can be categorized as Apta, Agama, Padartha and Pravritti.
The Lord of my religion is Bhagavan Buddha. He is the Supreme Lord. He has been present from the Beginning of the world. For Kalpas and Kalpas, he has been into this Samsaric world, and has expounded the Buddhist path for the welfare of the beings, without any Selfishness.
The Tripitakas spoken by him out of compassion, are our foremost Literature.

Nilakeshi:: If your Bhagavan Buddha is the Supreme Lord, who has been Enlightened from the Beginning. Why should he indulge himself in Samsara for hundreds of thousands of Kalpas ?
If he is Enlightened since Time Immemorial what are the results of his Indulgence in Samsara ?
Samsaric Indulgence, is due to Karma of our Previous Lives. His Samsaric Indulgence, is due to which of his Past Lives Karma ? If he has Past Live Karmas, how could he have been Enlightened from the Beginning ?
If he has been Indulging in Samsara for the welfare of other beings, without considering his own, why did he not continue that ? Why did he stop it ? Why should he only attain Nirvana, leaving all other Beings in Samsara ?
(Anachronistic Comment. As per the Epic Time frame, Buddha is still living )

You said, your Bhagavan Buddha spoke the Tripitaka out of his compassion, to guide the Beings of the World. If that is so, why did he not condemn meat eating ? He not only did not condemn meat eating, but has also actually induced and supported Meat Eating.
Since you deny Atman, the fundamental for all ethics, what is the use of you speaking about high ethical morals ?
These are your stances regarding your Lord.
What do you think about this World ?

Kundalakeshi: This World is made up of Five Skandhas. These Five Skandhas arise and fall momentarily. The World is also like that, is in a state for Momenatiriness, it is in a false state. It changes every moment.

Nilakeshi: Yes. This is your Kshanabhangavada. By this, you say that Materials die out before, they are formed again. By this, each event does not have any relation with the earlier events. You call this as Asat Karyavada. If this is so, then there is no Causality between events. If that is so, then this is no obstruction for an Impossible event like "Apperance of a Flower in the Sky" (Akasha Pushpa). Is it not so ?
If Vasana can be considered as an link for Casuality, we must accept some kind of relation between events. Kshanabhangavada cannot be true.
Philosphical Debates apart, In order to describe the Qualities of the Buddha, in the stories about the Bodhisattva, it is said that the Bodhisattva donated his Eyes, Flesh, Blood, even his children to those asking alms. The Nature of Almsgiving is dependant upon how well the alms is being used by the person who recives it. Did the person who asked for the head, went without his head to the Bodhisattva ? This has no meaning.
Do you mean to say that these events, are due to tests done by Indra on the Bodhisattva ? Why do tests for an Enlightened Bodhisattva ? Can't a Deva like Indra know his Merits ?

Kundalakeshi could not reply to any of the questions raised by the Nilakeshi. She was belittled by the King, and Nilakeshi was praised by all.
Then Nilakeshi went to the Teacher of Kundalakeshi, Arka Chandra

(Remaining)
* Debate with Arka Chandra
* Debate with Shariputra
* Debate with Maudgalyayana
* Debate with the Buddha
(Will be Continued...)
Summary of Debate with Arka Chandra
Arka Chandra was living at the city of Ujjain. Nilakeshi went to his place and had a debate about the Buddhist Vinaya.
She with examples showed the huge differences between the Buddhist Discipline and actual 'Discipline' in as followed by the Buddhists in Practice. She even pointed out that some Buddhist Principles are not even worthwhile to be followed in everyday life.

In many of the Jataka Stories, there are instances were the Bodhisattva donated his Wife and his Children to others. By this, one is to understand, donating whatever a person demands, is considered as a high conduct. But no Buddha with a clear mind, would not expect someone to follow this, and donate his wife to someone, just because the wife was asked as alms.

Next, Nilakeshi showed many new practices that came into existence in the Buddhist Sangha. For Example, it is said that a Bhikshu called Sangha Datta Sthavira called another Bhikshuni for Intercourse. When the Bhikshuni replied that, the Vihara is a pure place not to be contaminated, the Bhikshu replied that for a Bhikshu, whether it be a Vihara or a House, it is equal in his eyes.

In another Instance, a Bhikshu had intercourse with the corpse of a woman. When someone Condemned this Incident, the Bhukshu replied saying that there was no difference between a Dead Corpse and a Living Being ; one is a a Body which has become a Corpse and the other is a Living Corpse.

Further, in another such kind of Incident, it is said that while coaxing a Bhikshuni for Intercourse, a Bhikshu claimed that Intercourse is not against the religion. And added that If it can be done without the knowledge of the people, there is no harm in it.

By this way, Nilakeshi said that the people are motivated to Ignore the Basic Principles of Buddhism and Basic Principles of Human Conduct by means of religious texts themselves. Nilakeshi further showed such 18 exceptions where Misconduct was motivated by softening the basic rules of Conduct.
Even more, for a Buddhist Monk who says that he is renouncing material things, making many kinds of Clothings are made his own, is an absurdity.

Buddhism speaks about showing Love and Compassion to other beings, but at the same time it supports Meat Eating. One one side it says that for attaining Nirvana the Path and Ethics are important, but on the other hand, by speaking Sunyavada, it denies thd existance Atman the fundamental for all Ethics.

Buddhism says that all things are impure, but then you offer flowers and do Pujas to the Statue of the Buddha.
You claim that all things are momentary arise and fall, and hence they are impermanent, but then you again build Large Buddhist Temples and Monastries.
You deny the continuity in the Reincarnation of the Atman.
You worship the various forms Animals and Birds, in whose forms the Buddha reincarnated in his previous lives (?). But at the end, even these divine animals end up as food.

Arka Chandra hearing these confusions in Buddhist scheme of things, accepted its shortcomings. He also accepted that, non-violence as spoken by the Buddha were just mere wordplay. He finally accepted the Jain Dharma as expounded by Nilakeshi and went for refuge in the Jain Triple Gem.

(Next Debate with Maudgalyayana...)
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:44 am

Hey plwk

Where is the rest of the "debate"? It ends without the debates with the chief disciples and the buddha. I'm curious as to where the other debates are going. I followed the link, but all it appeared was the homepage.

By the way, poor knowledge and debate skills by Nilakeshi...
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby plwk » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:02 am

MP, back then in E-Sangha, vinodh did not finish translating and as that was a voluntary one, I did not pursue and on that amulet forum, the thread was locked for being non Buddhist lol...
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:19 am

Hi plwk,

Thanks for that. I think the confusion is that if I click on the link you posted it takes me to the top level of the amulet forum, not the specific thread...

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby Bankei » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:21 am

Here are some references

Balbir, Nalini 2000 Jain-Buddhist Dialogue: Material from the Paali Scriptures JPTS Vol. XXVI
Bollee, W. B. 1999 Adda or the Oldest Extant Dispute Between Jains and Heretics (Sūyagada 2, 6) Part two. Journal of Indian Philosophy Vol 27/5
Bronkhorst, Johannes 1995 The Buddha and the Jainas Reconsidered Asiatische Studien/Etudes Asiatiques Vol 49/2 pp. 333-350
Bronkhorst, Johannes 2000 The riddle of the Jainas and Ajivikas in early Buddhist literature. Journal of Indian Philosophy Vol 28 pp. 511-529.
Bronkhorst, Johannes 2000 Abhidharma and Jainism. In: Abhidharma and Indian Thought. Essays in honor of Professor Doctor Junsho Kato on his sixtieth birthday. Tokyo, Shuju-sha, pp. 598-581 [13]-[30], 2000.
Bronkhorst, Johannes 2011 Jainism: Window on Early India in Flügel, Peter (ed.) Jaina Law and Society
Caillatt, Colette 2003 Gleanings from a Comparative Reading of Early Canonical Buddhist and Jaina Texts JIABS Vol 26/1 pp. 25-50
Dundas, Paul 2003 Haribhadra's Lalitavistaraa and the Legend of Siddharsi's Conversion to Buddhism. in Qvarnstrm, Olle (ed.). Jainism and Early Buddhism: Essays in Honor of Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini.
Ferreira-Jardim, Antonio 2006 Some notes towards a history of Early Buddhist & Jaina meditation: vitakka, viyāra/-i and terms referring to mental one-pointedness (egatta, egaggamaṇa etc). Australian Association of Buddhist Studies Conference, University of Sydney
Gombrich, Richard 1994 The Buddha and the Jains: A Reply to Professor Bronkhorst Asiatische Studien/Etudes Asiatiques Vol XLVIII/4 pp. 1069-1096.
Gombrich, Richard 2003 Merit Detached from Volition: How a Buddhist Doctrine Came to Wear a Jain Aspect. in Qvarnstrm, Olle (ed.). Jainism and Early Buddhism: Essays in Honor of Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini.
Granoff, Phyllis 1992 Buddhaghosa's Penance and Siddhasena's Crime: Remarks on some Buddhist and Jain Attitudes Towards the Language of Religious Texts In: From Benares to Beijing: Essays on Buddhism and Chinese Religions in Honour of Prof.Jan Yun-Hua, Koichi Shinohara and Gregory Schopen, eds.
Mette, Adelheid 1995 The synchronism of the Buddha and the Jina Mahavira and the problem of chronology in early Jainism In When Did The Buddha Live? : The Controversy on the Dating of the Historical Buddha--Selected Papers Based on a Symposium held under the Auspices of the Academy of Sciences in Gottingen/edited by Heinz Bechert.
Watanabe, Kenji 2000 A Comparative Study of Passages from Early Buddhist and Jaina Texts: y r 2.15 : Dhp 183 and Isibh 29.19 : Dhp360, 361." in Balcerowicz, Piotr (ed.): Caturaranayacakram. Essays in Jaina Philosophy and Religion.
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby Bankei » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:32 pm

Also check out research by Claire Maes
http://www.cbs.ugent.be/index.php?id=429&type=content


Publications

(Master's thesis) "The establishment of the community of nuns in Buddhism and Jainism, placed in a historical framework" (Dutch). A pdf version is available online here.

Lectures

2009 March 27, KANTL (Belgium: Dagen der Belgische Oriëntalisten -XLVIIste Sessie): Interaction between 'Buddhists' and 'Jains' in the Pāli Vinaya

2010 April 20, KANTL (Belgium: Permanent Training in Buddhist Studies (PTBS), Ghent Centre for Buddhist Studies): Vroege boeddhisten en andere ascetische tradities in India

2010 October 8-10, Mysore (India: Jainism through the Ages, a Historical Perspective): Jainism's unique classification of living beings in early scriptures and its influence on early Buddhism

2010 0ctober 30 - November 1, AAR (Atlanta): How to Understand a Jain Infiltration in Buddhist Monastic Texts? A Critical Analysis of Buddhist Monastic Rules Laid Down to Protect One Sense Facultied Life (ekindriyaṃ jīvaṃ)

2011 June 21 - 25, IABS (Taiwan): The Denomination of the 'Other' in the Pali Vinaya: an Analysis of the Construction of a Buddhist Identity

2011 December 13, Oslo Buddhist Studies Forum (University of Oslo): Interaction Between Early Buddhists and Other Śramaṇas: an Analysis of the Representation of titthiya in the Pāli Vinaya
-----------------------
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Re: Buddhism in Jain texts

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 pm

MAHĀVIRA AND BUDDHA by Mr. Kamta Prasad Jain
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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