Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

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Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Wed May 06, 2009 8:47 pm

The solidity of my Awakening is very obvious to me. There is no doubt. It happened rather quickly after one reading of Wings to Awakening. If people come up to me out of nowhere or if others hear me talking to people who come to me, what is the accepted way to handle it? So far, I have done what was done for me by the one who introduced me to Theravada by pointing them to Wings of Awakening. Is this enough? If they notice me as a holy man, should I impart the Awakening to them as well with my good will? I also seem to be able to heal people with one touch. Should I do this?

I am also concerned about looking religious. This is such a real experience that I would not like people to make the mistake of getting overly dogmatic or to start worshipping me or following me. I don’t really want that. Any suggestions? Or am I supposed to just hide for a while until I find the answers within myself? Because that is entirely possible as well.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby clw_uk » Wed May 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Im a bit confused, are you declaring arahantship?


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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed May 06, 2009 9:06 pm

As Milarepa said, know emptiness, be compassionate :anjali:
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby pink_trike » Wed May 06, 2009 9:41 pm

flyingOx wrote:The solidity of my Awakening is very obvious to me.


Hi flyingOx,

It sounds like you've had quite an experience. It might be a good idea to meet with a Theravada teacher for some feedback on your experience. The mind can be quite slippery, especially when things seem obvious to the "me". It's just a good idea to get some feedback/confirmation/advise from a teacher before sharing your "Awakening" with others - it's good to be very careful about what we share with others regarding our own "awakening" mental events :anjali:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Cittasanto » Wed May 06, 2009 9:49 pm

go to the most awful place you can think of for a week, and see just how awakened you are!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Ben » Wed May 06, 2009 10:07 pm

Hi Flyingox

I would like to reiterate Pink's advice and get some feedback from a Theravada teacher.
In the interim, continue to observe all phenomena as impermanent, a source of suffering when an object of attachment, and ultimately, not self.
Kind regards

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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Wed May 06, 2009 11:20 pm

Clw_uk, I am not declaring anything. I am just telling you my experience. Like I said, this has happened so fast. Just last week, I was raging with anger, hate, had arthritis, had asthma, hated life, was depressed, didn’t believe in anything other than myself, and then someone special offered The Wings to Awakening to me. I read it. I now have no arthritis, I can breathe like never before, I love all life, I am filled with contentment and peace, and I know for certain that I have seen all of my past lives, I have seen the other side where there is no death, and I have no craving for anything of this world. I am not bothered by loud noises, my neighbor who I once hated who burns stinking trash, the smell does not bother me, and I have nothing but love for him. I have no enemies, and I can only hope that the whole world can feel this blessed. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is my honest experience. I do not know all of the Buddhist terminology. I don’t know the religious protocol, but I do know that if just reading this book once does all of this for me, it must be the true way.

Ngawang Drolma, yes, absolutely.

Pink_trike, I will certainly do that. At the present time, I have to finish up this semester at school. It is finals week. I am studying to be a computer engineer with an emphasis in neural networking. I was just about to give up because I was having difficulty concentrating. I can now concentrate and understand just about everything that I try to understand. There is an absolute silence while I study, now. There is no more whirling. It is so nice.

Manapa, I was there last week. I wanted to die. In a way I did. Now I fly.

Ben, I do not only observe all phenomena to be impermanent, I know it is so, other than the deathless. Again, I am not wanting attention, but I do want my friends to be happy if they are hurting. I should probably avoid people for a while. I have not shared anything with anyone other than pointing to The Wings to Awakening.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Cittasanto » Wed May 06, 2009 11:25 pm

Try somewhere which is full of bother, a physical environment not mental.

test yourself

this too will pass.


flyingOx wrote:Clw_uk, I am not declaring anything. I am just telling you my experience. Like I said, this has happened so fast. Just last week, I was raging with anger, hate, had arthritis, had asthma, hated life, was depressed, didn’t believe in anything other than myself, and then someone special offered The Wings to Awakening to me. I read it. I now have no arthritis, I can breathe like never before, I love all life, I am filled with contentment and peace, and I know for certain that I have seen all of my past lives, I have seen the other side where there is no death, and I have no craving for anything of this world. I am not bothered by loud noises, my neighbor who I once hated who burns stinking trash, the smell does not bother me, and I have nothing but love for him. I have no enemies, and I can only hope that the whole world can feel this blessed. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is my honest experience. I do not know all of the Buddhist terminology. I don’t know the religious protocol, but I do know that if just reading this book once does all of this for me, it must be the true way.

Ngawang Drolma, yes, absolutely.

Pink_trike, I will certainly do that. At the present time, I have to finish up this semester at school. It is finals week. I am studying to be a computer engineer with an emphasis in neural networking. I was just about to give up because I was having difficulty concentrating. I can now concentrate and understand just about everything that I try to understand. There is an absolute silence while I study, now. There is no more whirling. It is so nice.

Manapa, I was there last week. I wanted to die. In a way I did. Now I fly.

Ben, I do not only observe all phenomena to be impermanent, I know it is so, other than the deathless. Again, I am not wanting attention, but I do want my friends to be happy if they are hurting. I should probably avoid people for a while. I have not shared anything with anyone other than pointing to The Wings to Awakening.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby zavk » Wed May 06, 2009 11:34 pm

Dear flyingox,

I'm glad that you have found some relief. I think everyone here is happy for you.

But if you say that you now appreciate the impermanence of all things, then perhaps this state of peace you currently feel is also impermanent.

I don't know how the weather is like where you live, but over here, we sometimes get an odd day or two of nice mild weather in the midst of winter. But I wouldn't start packing away my warm clothes and book myself into a holiday house by the beach. For winter is not yet over, and even if it were, it doesn't mean that it won't come around again, if only to pass away again and again.

All the best to you anyway... take care.
With metta,
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Wed May 06, 2009 11:36 pm

Manapa wrote:Try somewhere which is full of bother, a physical environment not mental.

test yourself

this too will pass.


flyingOx wrote:Clw_uk, I am not declaring anything. I am just telling you my experience. Like I said, this has happened so fast. Just last week, I was raging with anger, hate, had arthritis, had asthma, hated life, was depressed, didn’t believe in anything other than myself, and then someone special offered The Wings to Awakening to me. I read it. I now have no arthritis, I can breathe like never before, I love all life, I am filled with contentment and peace, and I know for certain that I have seen all of my past lives, I have seen the other side where there is no death, and I have no craving for anything of this world. I am not bothered by loud noises, my neighbor who I once hated who burns stinking trash, the smell does not bother me, and I have nothing but love for him. I have no enemies, and I can only hope that the whole world can feel this blessed. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is my honest experience. I do not know all of the Buddhist terminology. I don’t know the religious protocol, but I do know that if just reading this book once does all of this for me, it must be the true way.

Ngawang Drolma, yes, absolutely.

Pink_trike, I will certainly do that. At the present time, I have to finish up this semester at school. It is finals week. I am studying to be a computer engineer with an emphasis in neural networking. I was just about to give up because I was having difficulty concentrating. I can now concentrate and understand just about everything that I try to understand. There is an absolute silence while I study, now. There is no more whirling. It is so nice.

Manapa, I was there last week. I wanted to die. In a way I did. Now I fly.

Ben, I do not only observe all phenomena to be impermanent, I know it is so, other than the deathless. Again, I am not wanting attention, but I do want my friends to be happy if they are hurting. I should probably avoid people for a while. I have not shared anything with anyone other than pointing to The Wings to Awakening.


Alright. As soon as school is out, I will do that.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Wed May 06, 2009 11:41 pm

zavk wrote:Dear flyingox,

I'm glad that you have found some relief. I think everyone here is happy for you.

But if you say that you now appreciate the impermanence of all things, then perhaps this state of peace you currently feel is also impermanent.

I don't know how the weather is like where you live, but over here, we sometimes get an odd day or two of nice mild weather in the midst of winter. But I wouldn't start packing away my warm clothes and book myself into a holiday house by the beach. For winter is not yet over, and even if it were, it doesn't mean that it won't come around again, if only to pass away again and again.

All the best to you anyway... take care.


Well, it is a good practice to see it as impermanent, to enter again the states of jhana to be sure, but to be honest with you, I know what I know as well. I don't know how I know. I just know. Peace to you
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby pink_trike » Thu May 07, 2009 12:39 am

Zavk's mention of the seasons is a good reminder that our mental events are often partly products of external seasonal energies. In classical chinese medical philosophy, for example, there is described a pattern of mental states that rise and fall with the cycles of the seasons:

---

Spring moves the mind vigorously which can often lead to heightened organization and productivity, but that can also lead to confusion, difficulty with concentration, irritation, and anger.

Summer moves the heart which can often lead to an expansive mind state, heightened clarity, generosity, and the experience of peace and love - but that can also lead to ungrounded mind states and forms of hysteria.

Late Summer moves the center of the body (spleen/digestive system) which can lead to a mind state of contentment and centered-ness and balance, but that can also lead to chaotic thinking, the inability to make decisions, and resentment.

Fall moves the lungs, which can result in heightened productivity and the mind-state of empathy, but it can also lead to states of grasping and/or over-asserting.

Winter moves the kidneys, which can result in a a heightened sense of security and well-being, but that can also lead to depression and fear.

---

Classic chinese medical dating of the seasons is a bit different to what we're accustomed to noticing in the West. For example, right now in this view, May 8th (this year) is the peak of Summer when heart energy is at it's peak ascendancy (in the West we think this is the only the beginning of Summer). Many of us are currently experiencing a sense of expansiveness, peace, relaxation, and heightened love and understanding. This will pass. This heightened state of heart awareness will gradually descend into Late Summer...a time noted in the garden as the great ripening that is mixed up with a great rotting. And in Fall it is a time to plow the garden under and let go - which is followed by the dark of winter when all of life seeks dormant shelter. And then Spring moves the mind out of dormancy again - and so we experience cycle after cycle after cycle.

We can very clearly observe these seasonal patterns in our own life (keeping a dated journal for several years is very revealing), in the actions of the larger human community, and in the garden - but especially in the movement of the mind. It's useful for us to see that the mind-states that arise during the cycling of the seasons aren't permanent and are conditioned. They will pass, so we shouldn't attempt to cling to them or rebirth ourselves with them. We do best when we don't take them too seriously, learn from them, kiss them on the fly and let em go - rather then getting sticky with them and building them into mountains in our mind/body/actions/speech.

---

I've often wondered if there is any similar sense of the effects of the cycling seasons on the movement of the mind in Theravada. Has anyone seen anything similar in any sutta?
Last edited by pink_trike on Thu May 07, 2009 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Thu May 07, 2009 12:58 am

pink_trike wrote:Zavk's mention of the seasons is a good reminder that our mental events are often partly products of external seasonal energies. In classical chinese medical philosophy, for example, there is described a pattern of mental states that rise and fall with the cycles of the seasons:

---

Spring moves the mind vigorously which can often lead to heightened organization and productivity, but that can also lead to confusion, difficulty with concentration, irritation, and anger.

Summer moves the heart which can often lead to an expansive mind state, heightened clarity, generosity, and the experience of peace and love - but that can also lead to ungrounded mind states and forms of hysteria.

Late Summer moves the center of the body (spleen/digestive system) which can lead to a mind state of contentment and centered-ness and balance, but that can also lead to chaotic thinking, the inability to make decisions, and resentment.

Fall moves the lungs, which can result in heightened productivity and the mind-state of empathy, but it can also lead to states of grasping and/or over-asserting.

Winter moves the kidneys, which can result in a a heightened sense of security and well-being, but that can also lead to depression and fear.

---

Classic chinese medical dating of the seasons is a bit different to what we're accustomed to noticing in the West. For example, right now in this view, May 8th (this year) is the peak of Summer when heart energy is at it's peak ascendancy (in the West we think this is the only the beginning of Summer). Many of us are currently experiencing a sense of expansiveness, peace, relaxation, and heightened love and understanding. This will pass. This heightened state of heart awareness will gradually descend into Late Summer...a time noted in the garden as the great ripening that is mixed up with a great rotting. And in Fall it is a time to plow the garden under and let go - which is followed by the dark of winter when all of life seeks dormant shelter. And then Spring moves the mind out of dormancy again - and so we experience cycle after cycle after cycle.

We can very clearly observe these seasonal patterns in our own life (keeping a dated journal for several years is very revealing), in the actions of the larger human community, and in the garden. It's useful for us to see that the mind-states that arise during the cycling of the seasons aren't permanent and are conditioned. They will pass, so we shouldn't attempt to cling to them or rebirth ourselves with them. We do best when we don't take them too seriously, learn from them, kiss them on the fly and let em go - rather then getting sticky with them and building them into mountains in our mind/body/actions/speech.

---

I've often wondered if there is any similar sense of the effects of the cycling seasons on the movement of the mind in Theravada. Has anyone seen anything similar in any sutta?


I see, feel, and know the seasons. They are fleeting and cycling. I see the vast expanse of all space and time, both light and darkness, even the deep darkness in between. I don't see, but I know the other side that has no beginning or end. Other than that I do not know how to say or even with my mind comprehend, but still, this not being able to comprehend does not bother me. My mind is a tamed machine. Much like the neural nets that I have programmed.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Thu May 07, 2009 2:45 am

I thank you all for your input. I have decided not to do any kind of ministering to anyone. I have also decided to go into the wilderness on a survival outing as soon as finals are over. I will only have my clothes on my body. I will spend the enire summer in the woods living off of whatever I find or don't find for bodily sustenance. Peace to all.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 07, 2009 3:49 am

Greetings flyingOx,

flyingOx wrote:I thank you all for your input. I have decided not to do any kind of ministering to anyone. I have also decided to go into the wilderness on a survival outing as soon as finals are over. I will only have my clothes on my body. I will spend the enire summer in the woods living off of whatever I find or don't find for bodily sustenance. Peace to all.


Maybe a meditation retreat under the instruction of a teacher might be more beneficial?

Maybe.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby davcuts » Thu May 07, 2009 4:39 am

flyingOx wrote:I am not declaring anything. I am just telling you my experience. Like I said, this has happened so fast. Just last week, I was raging with anger, hate, had arthritis, had asthma, hated life, was depressed, didn’t believe in anything other than myself, and then someone special offered The Wings to Awakening to me. I read it. I now have no arthritis, I can breathe like never before, I love all life, I am filled with contentment and peace, and I know for certain that I have seen all of my past lives, I have seen the other side where there is no death, and I have no craving for anything of this world. I am not bothered by loud noises, my neighbor who I once hated who burns stinking trash, the smell does not bother me, and I have nothing but love for him. I have no enemies, and I can only hope that the whole world can feel this blessed. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is my honest experience. I do not know all of the Buddhist terminology. I don’t know the religious protocol, but I do know that if just reading this book once does all of this for me, it must be the true way.


This is great. Last week you had all these problems but now you don't. The real test will come in a week or so when once again you might feel anger, depression, hate, have arthritis and so on. That will be the true test to see just how awakened you are. It's easy to feel blissed out when everything in life is great. Feeling blissed out when things go horribly wrong is not always easy to do. You have had a great experience, and it seems to have happened over night. That has me worried because things constantly change in samsara. If the problems you had prior come to life once again will you still feel awakened? Or will you give up on Dharma because it didn't live up to your expectations?
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby fig tree » Thu May 07, 2009 5:38 am

flyingOx wrote: If they notice me as a holy man, should I impart the Awakening to them as well with my good will?

There are all kinds of pitfalls to be aware of:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch4.4.
I'm not suggesting that you're at that stage, but there are some resemblances.

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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 07, 2009 9:25 am

fig tree wrote:I'm not suggesting that you're at that stage, but there are some resemblances.

Speaking in general terms (not wanting to try to judge any particular case) I've heard several teachers mention that at that stage it is inevitable that the meditator is convinced that he/she is enlightened and that his/her teacher is too stupid to realise it...

The last of Steve Armstrong's series of talks about Sayadaw Mahasi's writings here:
http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/SteveArmstrong.html
"Refined Knowledge, Subtle Wisdom (5 of 5) "
and, as I recall, the talk "2008-08-23 Vipassana Jhanas 62:16" here: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/170/
address this issue.

Metta
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Thu May 07, 2009 1:05 pm

davcuts wrote:
flyingOx wrote:I am not declaring anything. I am just telling you my experience. Like I said, this has happened so fast. Just last week, I was raging with anger, hate, had arthritis, had asthma, hated life, was depressed, didn’t believe in anything other than myself, and then someone special offered The Wings to Awakening to me. I read it. I now have no arthritis, I can breathe like never before, I love all life, I am filled with contentment and peace, and I know for certain that I have seen all of my past lives, I have seen the other side where there is no death, and I have no craving for anything of this world. I am not bothered by loud noises, my neighbor who I once hated who burns stinking trash, the smell does not bother me, and I have nothing but love for him. I have no enemies, and I can only hope that the whole world can feel this blessed. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is my honest experience. I do not know all of the Buddhist terminology. I don’t know the religious protocol, but I do know that if just reading this book once does all of this for me, it must be the true way.


This is great. Last week you had all these problems but now you don't. The real test will come in a week or so when once again you might feel anger, depression, hate, have arthritis and so on. That will be the true test to see just how awakened you are. It's easy to feel blissed out when everything in life is great. Feeling blissed out when things go horribly wrong is not always easy to do. You have had a great experience, and it seems to have happened over night. That has me worried because things constantly change in samsara. If the problems you had prior come to life once again will you still feel awakened? Or will you give up on Dharma because it didn't live up to your expectations?

Even if I were to experience my old self all over again in vivid detail, even then it would not matter. I would arrive at this again the same way as I did it then. I'm not sure if all of you realize how extremely "bothersome" going to school full time with Calculus, Physics, Differential Equations, Product Development for Engineers, finding a new paradigm and way of life, having a whole campus full of teachers and friends noticing me as a completely different person, mentioning the peace that they feel when they are around me. Yet, nothing really bothering me anymore. I am quite serious and honest about that. I can tell that Kamma may have remnants to work out, but that doesn't bother me either. Anyway the point that I am making doesn't have anything to do with convincing you. It was about whether or not I should act on my inclinations of extending compassion publicly. I don't want the people who I know to think that I am avoiding them. I try to explain to them that it is all new, and that the best that I can do is offer them the Wings to Awakening to see if they can get the same results that I did. Also, I accidentally healed my mother. Or perhaps she took the healing faith that she noticed in my aura. All I know is that if things get tough, so what? Does it or will it ever really matter again? My experience came with that realization. That is why I am free, now. Why would that knowledge ever leave?
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Thu May 07, 2009 1:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
fig tree wrote:I'm not suggesting that you're at that stage, but there are some resemblances.

Speaking in general terms (not wanting to try to judge any particular case) I've heard several teachers mention that at that stage it is inevitable that the meditator is convinced that he/she is enlightened and that his/her teacher is too stupid to realise it...

The last of Steve Armstrong's series of talks about Sayadaw Mahasi's writings here:
http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/SteveArmstrong.html
"Refined Knowledge, Subtle Wisdom (5 of 5) "
and, as I recall, the talk "2008-08-23 Vipassana Jhanas 62:16" here: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/170/
address this issue.

Metta
Mike


And yet that doesn't matter either. It is a good list of meditation techniques is all that I can say. If rehashing what I clearly already remember going through, no matter how rappidly it seems, is what people think that I should do, oh well. I suppose they could come and chop my head off. But still, even that would not matter.

Peace to all.
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