Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

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Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:17 pm

Hi All,
I see this sutta has come up a few times in the last couple of months, and I have developed a particular interest in it (particularly the principles it provides for living) and would like to discuss this. I have not really developed a coherent line of thinking about what it is saying as yet, so will refrain from starting providing my own reflections untill later, but please give your thoughts upon this.
AN 8.54 - PTS: A iv 281 - Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja) Sutta: To Dighajanu - translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1995–2012 wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Koliyans. Now the Koliyans have a town named Kakkarapatta. There Dighajanu[1] the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come."

[The Blessed One said:] "There are these four qualities, TigerPaw, that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life. Which four? Being consummate in initiative, being consummate in vigilance, admirable friendship, and maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in initiative? There is the case where a lay person, by whatever occupation he makes his living — whether by farming or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man or by any other craft — is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in vigilance? There is the case when a lay person has righteous wealth — righteously gained, coming from his initiative, his striving, his making an effort, gathered by the strength of his arm, earned by his sweat — he manages to protect it through vigilance [with the thought], 'How shall neither kings nor thieves make off with this property of mine, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' This is called being consummate in vigilance.

"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.

"And what does it mean to maintain one's livelihood in tune? There is the case where a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' Just as when a weigher or his apprentice, when holding the scales, knows, 'It has tipped down so much or has tipped up so much,' in the same way, the lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' If a lay person has a small income but maintains a grand livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman devours his wealth like a fruit-tree eater.'[2] If a lay person has a large income but maintains a miserable livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman will die of starvation.' But when a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income,' this is called maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

"These are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to close the inlets and open the drains, and the sky were not to pour down proper showers, the depletion of that great reservoir could be expected, not its increase. In the same way, these are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie.

These are the four inlets to one's store of wealth: no debauchery in sex; no debauchery in drink; no debauchery in gambling; and admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to open the inlets and close the drains, and the sky were to pour down proper showers, the increase of that great reservoir could be expected, not its depletion. In the same way, these are the four inlets to one's store of wealth: no debauchery in sex; no debauchery in drink; no debauchery in gambling; and admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie.

"These, TigerPaw, are the four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life.

"There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in conviction? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge and conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine and human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called being consummate in conviction.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of miserliness, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called being consummate in generosity.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment.

"These, TigerPaw, are the four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come."
Heedful at administering or working at one's occupation, maintaining one's life in tune, one protects one's store of wealth. A person of conviction, consummate in virtue, magnanimous, free of selfishness, constantly clears the path to security in the lives to come. Thus for one who seeks the household life, these eight qualities, leading to welfare & happiness both in this life & in lives to come, have been declared by the one whose name is truth. And this is how, for householders, generosity & merit increase.
Notes

1. = "LongShin".
2. Commentary: one who shakes more fruit off a tree than he can possibly eat.


Alternative translations can be found here and here.
and a Wikipedia article
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:51 pm

AN 8.54 PTS: A iv 281
Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja) Sutta: Conditions of Welfare
translated from the Pali by Narada Thera

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html

    Translator's note: In this sutta, the Buddha instructs rich householders how to preserve and increase their prosperity and how to avoid loss of wealth. Wealth alone, however, does not make a complete man nor a harmonious society. Possession of wealth all too often multiplies man's desires, and he is ever in the pursuit of amassing more wealth and power. This unrestrained craving, however, leaves him dissatisfied and stifles his inner growth. It creates conflict and disharmony in society through the resentment of the underprivileged who feel themselves exploited by the effects of unrestrained craving.

    Therefore the Buddha follows up on his advice on material welfare with four essential conditions for spiritual welfare: confidence (in the Master's enlightenment), virtue, liberality and wisdom. These four will instill in man a sense of higher values. He will then not only pursue his own material concern, but also be aware of his duty toward society. To mention only one of the implications: a wisely and generously employed liberality will reduce tensions and conflicts in society. Thus the observing of these conditions of material and spiritual welfare will make for an ideal citizen in an ideal society.

Thus have I heard. Once the Exalted One was dwelling amongst the Koliyans,[1] in their market town named Kakkarapatta. Then Dighajanu,[2] a Koliyan, approached the Exalted One, respectfully saluted Him and sat on one side. Thus seated, he addressed the Exalted One as follows:

"We, Lord, are laymen who enjoy worldly pleasure. We lead a life encumbered by wife and children. We use sandalwood of Kasi. We deck ourselves with garlands, perfume and unguents. We use gold and silver. To those like us, O Lord, let the Exalted One preach the Dhamma, teach those things that lead to weal and happiness in this life and to weal and happiness in future life."
Conditions of Worldly Progress

"Four conditions, Vyagghapajja,[3] conduce to a householder's weal and happiness in this very life. Which four?

"The accomplishment of persistent effort (utthana-sampada), the accomplishment of watchfulness (arakkha-sampada), good friendship (kalyanamittata) and balanced livelihood (sama-jivikata).

"What is the accomplishment of persistent effort?

"Herein, Vyagghapajja, by whatsoever activity a householder earns his living, whether by farming, by trading, by rearing cattle, by archery, by service under the king, or by any other kind of craft — at that he becomes skillful and is not lazy. He is endowed with the power of discernment as to the proper ways and means; he is able to carry out and allocate (duties). This is called the accomplishment of persistent effort.

"What is the accomplishment of watchfulness?

"Herein, Vyagghapajja, whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means — such he husbands well by guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.

"What is good friendship?

"Herein, Vyagghapajja, in whatsoever village or market town a householder dwells, he associates, converses, engages in discussions with householders or householders' sons, whether young and highly cultured or old and highly cultured, full of faith (saddha),[4] full of virtue (sila), full of charity (caga), full of wisdom (pañña). He acts in accordance with the faith of the faithful, with the virtue of the virtuous, with the charity of the charitable, with the wisdom of the wise. This is called good friendship.

"What is balanced livelihood?

"Herein, Vyagghapajja, a householder knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.

"Just as the goldsmith,[5] or an apprentice of his, knows, on holding up a balance, that by so much it has dipped down, by so much it has tilted up; even so a householder, knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.

"If, Vyagghapajja, a householder with little income were to lead an extravagant life, there would be those who say — 'This person enjoys his property like one who eats wood-apple.'[6] If, Vyagghapajja, a householder with a large income were to lead a wretched life, there would be those who say — 'This person will die like a starveling.'

"The wealth thus amassed, Vyagghapajja, has four sources of destruction:

"(i) Debauchery, (ii) drunkenness, (iii) gambling, (iv) friendship, companionship and intimacy with evil-doers.

"Just as in the case of a great tank with four inlets and outlets, if a man should close the inlets and open the outlets and there should be no adequate rainfall, decrease of water is to be expected in that tank, and not an increase; even so there are four sources for the destruction of amassed wealth — debauchery, drunkenness, gambling, and friendship, companionship and intimacy with evil-doers.

"There are four sources for the increase of amassed wealth: (i) abstinence from debauchery, (ii) abstinence from drunkenness, (iii) non-indulgence in gambling, (iv) friendship, companionship and intimacy with the good.

"Just as in the case of a great tank with four inlets and four outlets, if a person were to open the inlets and close the outlets, and there should also be adequate rainfall, an increase in water is certainly to be expected in that tank and not a decrease, even so these four conditions are the sources of increase of amassed wealth.

"These four conditions, Vyagghapajja, are conducive to a householder's weal and happiness in this very life.
Conditions of Spiritual Progress

"Four conditions, Vyagghapajja, conduce to a householder's weal and happiness in his future life. Which four?

"The accomplishment of faith (saddha-sampada), the accomplishment of virtue (sila-sampada), the accomplishment of charity (caga-sampada) and the accomplishment of wisdom (pañña-sampada).

"What is the accomplishment of faith?

"Herein a householder is possessed of faith, he believes in the Enlightenment of the Perfect One (Tathagata): Thus, indeed, is that Blessed One: he is the pure one, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and conduct, well-gone, the knower of worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, all-knowing and blessed. This is called the accomplishment of faith.

"What is the accomplishment of virtue?

"Herein a householder abstains from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and from intoxicants that cause infatuation and heedlessness. This is called the accomplishment of virtue.

"What is the accomplishment of charity?

"Herein a householder dwells at home with heart free from the stain of avarice, devoted to charity, open-handed, delighting in generosity, attending to the needy, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called the accomplishment of charity.

"What is the accomplishment of wisdom?

"Herein a householder is wise: he is endowed with wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of the noble penetrating insight that leads to the destruction of suffering. This is called the accomplishment of wisdom.

"These four conditions, Vyagghapajja, conduce to a householder's weal and happiness in his future life."

Energetic and heedful in his tasks,
Wisely administering his wealth,
He lives a balanced life,
Protecting what he has amassed.

Endowed with faith and virtue too,
Generous he is and free from avarice;
He ever works to clear the path
That leads to weal in future life.

Thus to the layman full of faith,
By him, so truly named 'Enlightened,'
These eight conditions have been told
Which now and after lead to bliss.

Notes

1. The Koliyans were the rivals of the Sakyans. Queen Maha Maya belonged to the Koliyan clan and King Suddhodana to the Sakyan clan.

2. Literally, 'long-kneed'

3. 'Tiger's Path'; he was so called because his ancestors were born on a forest path infested with tigers. Vyagghapajja was Dighajanu's family name.

4. Saddha is not blind faith. It is confidence based on knowledge.

5. Tuladharo, lit., 'carrier of the scales.'

6. Udumbarakhadaka. The Commentary explains that one who wishes to eat wood-apple shakes the tree, with the result that many fruits fall but only a few are eaten, while a large number are wasted.
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:34 am

Disclaimer – This is my initial observations on this text so may come across more academic than intended, as this is a means I use to clarify my thought on texts.
I am using the translation I posted initially by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, however I quote from my own translations and use Tan Ajahns passages from this sutta interchangeably with my own interpretations of words, which can be different to Tan Ajahns! I apologise for any inconvenience this brings to understanding what I am referring to from this particular sutta and it is for ease of referencing as it only requires one document of texts which I am more familiar with to be open, rather than several texts or pages where I may not have grasped the meaning of a particular context.
However, I do hope that my work is not misleading or inaccurate to what the Buddha was actually saying!

"We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come."

This opening passage remind me of the Mangala Sutta, The Supreme Blessings:
Mangala Sutta wrote: 1. “‘Many Devas and humans have thought about blessings wishing for well-being – speak then of the superior blessings?’


The four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life. That of (1)being consummate in initiative, (2)being consummate in vigilance, (3)admirable friendship, and (4)maintaining one's livelihood in tune, each seam to be related either directly or indirectly to training in Sila as part of the Noble Eightfold Path
Mahasatipaṭṭhāna Sutta DN22 – section 5.5.5 The Fourth Noble Truth in Detail wrote:Virtue Division of the path - Sīla
Mendicants, now what is upright speech?
Abstaining from false speech, abstaining from malicious speech, abstaining from rough speech, and abstaining from frivolous talk.
Mendicants, this is called upright speech!

Mendicants, now what is upright action?
Abstaining from killing living creatures, abstaining from taking what has not been given, and abstaining from misconduct based in desire.
Mendicants, this is called upright action!

Mendicants, Now what is upright means of support?
Mendicants, here a noble disciple having abandoned wrong ways of supporting oneself, makes their living by a upright means.
Mendicants, this is called upright means of support!

Nimbers 1,2 & 4 are the most directly related to the upright means of support fold of the path, and the lease directly is number 3 admiral friendship, but can be seen as a combination of upright speech and upright action in there various forms. Although with admiral friendship being the whole of the path, Upright Perspective, Intention, Effort, Mindfulness & Concentration would also be supported and connected here.
Personally I believe that Upright Perspective, Effort, and Mindfulness are the main ones supported by admiral friendship partly based upon these being the three main aspects which support the rest of the path, and friends can help straighten out our perspective on things, giving a clearer more balanced vision of things, an inspiration to exert ourselves (through appropriate conversation, so also supporting the other three in this list,) and support hiri ottapa due to a sense of not wishing to let our friends down, so our mindfulness is then sharpened regarding our speech and action and livlihood in a general sense not bound by the list found describing the eightfold path.

#1 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in initiative? There is the case where a lay person, by whatever occupation he makes his living — whether by farming or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man or by any other craft — is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.

I think it interesting that this list includes work which could be classed as wrong livelihood or breaching the precepts, particularly trading, cattle tending, archery and king's man, although I maybe inferring allot onto these the most connected to wrong livelihood would be archery.

is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.

another similarity to the Mangala Sutta
Mangala Sutta wrote:4. ‘Being fully versed in ones craft, and disciplined in training oneself therein, with beneficial speech. This is a superior blessing.

The first four in this list maybe more worldly in comparison to the second four, but this would show the Buddha placed emphasis on doing things properly, not half heartedly, and even though this is for a lay person the same advise could easily also be given to meditators, lay or ordained, regarding the practice. Applying effort, both to learn and do, and developing wisdom through learning to do the task at hand well.
Admiral friendship would also play apart in this, mainly in the training, “a workman or a workman’s apprentice” to put it in a general way is common to see in similes (see #4,) the one with knowledge being the admiral friend who teaches makes clear, and encourages through speech the apprentice whom in return is eager to train/learn and do the craft.

The second and fourth are both about money and wealth so I shall deal with these together and leave the third until last.
#2 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in vigilance? There is the case when a lay person has righteous wealth — righteously gained, coming from his initiative, his striving, his making an effort, gathered by the strength of his arm, earned by his sweat — he manages to protect it through vigilance [with the thought], 'How shall neither kings nor thieves make off with this property of mine, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' This is called being consummate in vigilance.


some similarity with a couple of the Mangala Suttas Verses
Mangala Sutta wrote:5. ‘To care for ones parents, family and community, and not entangled in business. This is a superior blessing.
6. 'Generous, and conducting oneself in-line with the Dhamma towards ones relatives and community, while acting in blameless ways. This is a superior blessing.


this is answered directly here
SN 3.19 PTS: S i 89 CDB i 182 Aputtaka Sutta: Heirless (1) translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1999–2009 wrote:"But when a person of integrity acquires lavish wealth, he provides for his own pleasure & satisfaction, for the pleasure & satisfaction of his parents, the pleasure & satisfaction of his wife & children; the pleasure & satisfaction of his slaves, servants, & assistants; and the pleasure & satisfaction of his friends. He institutes for priests & contemplatives offerings of supreme aim, heavenly, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven. When his wealth is properly put to use, kings don't make off with it, thieves don't make off with it, fire doesn't burn it, water doesn't sweep it away, and hateful heirs don't make off with it. Thus his wealth, properly put to use, goes to a good use and not to waste.

however I feel another way to answer this question would be to protect the training in the craft, keeping up to date with trends (in some cases,) and techneques etc... this would ensure one is always able to work and aquire what wealth was needed.
Another way is by developing contentment (Dhp205) being trusting and generous (SN3.19 above), as the buddha has said that this is a way to bring ones wealth with you into future lives (reference ??)
#4 wrote:"And what does it mean to maintain one's livelihood in tune? There is the case where a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' Just as when a weigher or his apprentice, when holding the scales, knows, 'It has tipped down so much or has tipped up so much,' in the same way, the lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' If a lay person has a small income but maintains a grand livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman devours his wealth like a fruit-tree eater.'[2] If a lay person has a large income but maintains a miserable livelihood, it will be rumoured of him, 'This clansman will die of starvation.' But when a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income,' this is called maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

DN31 gives advise on how to ration ones income to use it wisely one portion of ones wealth is for own wants & uses, two portions for work, one portion saved for a rainy day.
Although I remember another instance the Buddha gives advice in the use of money I can not remember where it is to check.
It would seam the advise on wealth was not only because it was good to spend money wisely, but it also gives one less reason for others to gossip about you, an ability to support oneself in times of need and help others if the need arises.
It is interesting that the Buddha advises only one one quarter of ones wealth for ones own use, as this portion would also be used for providing support for the sangha, on a daily basis (rather than the savings or business portions,) as this would also protect the laity from being overly generous, or to keep within their means to support the sangha, and the sangha have a duty to protect the laity from being overly generous (patimokha rules can not remember which one it is exactly though.)
This would encourage the sangha to develop contentment, and protect their inner wealth (Dhp205) and in a way be a duty of the teacher to their student in a spiritual work environment (meditation instruction, teaching) as already covered above.

#3 wrote:"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.

I think I have covered this one enough above within the other areas although the Mangala Sutta does have some similarities here with some of what has been discussed in #4.

Mangala Sutta in order of appearance wrote:2. ‘Shunning the fool and keeping company with the wise, and paying homage to those worthy of veneration. This is a superior blessing.
8. ‘being respectful, humble, content and of an appreciative manner, so able to hear the truth at the appropriate time. This is a superior blessing.
9. ‘Having forbearance and obedience, and seeing seekers of truth whom have insight, so able to discuss regarding the truth at the appropriate time. This is a superior blessing.


but to end the worldly aspect (see Narada's translation) the Mangala Sutta (ok yeah I know) has this advise.
Mangala Sutta wrote:11. ‘when dealing with worldly activities, ones mind remains unmoved, Free from sorrow, & defilements, so safe. This is a superior blessing.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:49 am

Thanks Cittasanto for the interesting connections between those suttas!

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:48 am

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks Cittasanto for the interesting connections between those suttas!

:anjali:
Mike

I will post the second part hopefully today, hope someone provides some thoughts of their own.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:55 pm

Disclaimer – This is my initial observations on this text so may come across more academic than intended, as this is a means I use to clarify my thought on texts.
I am using the translation I posted initially by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, however I quote from my own translations and use Tan Ajahns passages from this sutta interchangeably with my own interpretations of words, which can be different to Tan Ajahns! I apologise for any inconvenience this brings to understanding what I am referring to from this particular sutta and it is for ease of referencing as it only requires one document of texts which I am more familiar with to be open, rather than several texts or pages where I may not have grasped the meaning of a particular context.
However, I do hope that my work is not misleading or inaccurate to what the Buddha was actually saying!

#5 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in conviction? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge and conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine and human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called being consummate in conviction.

this faith is part of right view
Mahā-cattārīsaka sutta - The Discourse on the Great Forty wrote:‘Atthi dinnaṃ, atthi yiṭṭhaṃ, atthi hutaṃ,
There is what is given, offered and sacrificed,
atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko,
skilful and unskilled acts do have consequences, and end result.
atthi ayaṃ loko, atthi paro loko,
this world, and the other world do exist,
atthi mātā, atthi pitā, atthi sattā opapātikā,
there are mothers, fathers, and spontaneously born beings.
atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī’ti —
there are also Recluses and Brahmins who have traversed the upright path until complete perfection, so by their own efforts, realizing this world and the world beyond, declare it.” -

this can be called mundane upright perspective, but it is a perspective which is in-line with Dhamma, and conviction here is being convinced of this fact (super-mundane), not simply a faith in that it is true (which is mundane)
The Mangala sutta talks about conviction which is otherwise known as faith.
Maṅgala Sutta - The Supreme Blessings Snp 2.4 wrote:8. ‘being respectful, humble, content and of an appreciative manner, so able to hear the truth at the appropriate time. This is a superior blessing.
9. ‘Having forbearance and obedience, and seeing seekers of truth whom have insight, so able to discuss regarding the truth at the appropriate time. This is a superior blessing.
10. ‘The chaste behaviour lived with morality, so one is able to see the noble truths, For the realisation of Nibbāna. This is a superior blessing.

verses 8 & 9 are how Faith is expressed appropriately, I am prefering faith to conviction here as one may not be convinced of the qualities of a person but have faith in what they have seen, and heard in person/via another. Without faith in the Buddha, his ability to teach and that there are those who have followed his teaching and gained results (right view) the motivation to practice may not be to go or see if it leads to the end result of nibbana claimed by the Buddha.

#6 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.

Virtue or my preference at times is moral principles, which seams to be a better translation here, as it deals with the precepts, is also a support for and for the purpose of practising satipatthana
Sīla sutta, Saṃyutta Nikāya 47.21 (Excerpt) wrote:(Honourable Ānanda) “Friend Bhadda, this virtue in regards to the code of morality is said to be by the fortunate one, ‘This virtue regarding the code of morality is only for the cultivation of the four satipaṭṭhānas.’”

The Mangala sutta talks about virtue
Maṅgala Sutta - The Supreme Blessings Snp 2.4 wrote:7. ‘Restrained in regard to unskilful acts, and abstaining from mind altering intoxicants, being heedful in regard to mental phenomena. This is a superior blessing.

Here the fifth precept is singled out and mentioned directly whereas the others are inferred, mainly (in my opinion) because it is the only precept which deals with seeing things as they are, or lack there of directly, in a spiritual sense, as this is a spiritually blameable precept, one of ordinance while the other four precepts of the pancasila are worldly blameable also.
If we consume intoxicants we have a diminished capacity to see things as they are.

#7 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of miserliness, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called being consummate in generosity.

The Mangala sutta talks about generosity
Maṅgala Sutta - The Supreme Blessings Snp 2.4 wrote:6. 'Generous, and conducting oneself in-line with the Dhamma towards ones relatives and community, while acting in blameless ways. This is a superior blessing.

The Buddha taught the Dhamma-vinaya for 45 years in this manner, setting up rules as they were required, and this was no easy task, the Vinaya-pitaka is full of people going to the Buddha complaining about X, Y & Z being done, by either naive or unscrupulous Bhikkhus & Bhikkhunis.
But He always took the time to ask those who where suppose to of committed the offence or potential offence so he was always equally fare, there may have been a reasonable reason for the act which didn't make it an offence after all!
He also taught anyone without holding back information, or knowledge, something I have a sense he done when setting up the rules also, he may not of divulged all his knowledge at every turn but he answered the question with care, in a timely manner.
Could anyone be more generous, I am sure it would be a fare and reasonable interpretation to say his first inclination was to leave the world to it, but fortunately for us “The Brahma-god Sahampatī, Lord of the cosmos convinced him to reconsider his plans of a nice peaceful life in the wilderness.
Generosity can also be seen in a practice sense of deminishing covetousness, and self-identifying with things as my, me, mine, I.

#8 wrote:"And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment.


The Mangala sutta talks about discernment
Maṅgala Sutta - The Supreme Blessings Snp 2.4 wrote:10. ‘The chaste behaviour lived with morality, so one is able to see the noble truths, For the realisation of Nibbāna. This is a superior blessing.


although insight practice seams to be the major component in both these texts it is important to note that the Buddha doesn't say tranquil abiding (samatha) is not important, or not part of the process leading to enlightenment and often says both are needed. But it is only wisdom which can penetrate through to nibbana samatha is like the diving board the more powerful the Samatha the stronger widsom is and vice versa, they both support and hold one another.

Please share your thoughts and views!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:36 pm

I like the interesting sutta connections, Cittasanto, particularly what you point out about the fifth precept.

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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:55 pm

The fifth precept is just as important as the rest, but unfortunately it is the one where even monks would say everything in moderation, (I have seen this predominantly within the tibetan tradition) but it is just as important as the rest, as if it were the case that everything in moderation then lets murder in moderation steal in moderation rape in moderation, have illitit sex in moderation, lie only when it suits our own needs or just be moderate with the truth, it is as judge Judy says 'BALONEY.'
if you follow the Buddhas teachings it is simple follow them, not reinterpret them, war has never nor can be ever justified by the Buddhas teachings, self defence can be but anything above that is unjustifiable, it is simple.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:27 pm

13+ views and no thoughts on the texts??????

common ppl :)
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:30 pm

Hi Cittasanto,

Don't worry, a lot of people read this stuff and don't seem to comment, but do say they get a lot from seeing a variety of suttas and a variety of connections. You explained the connections between this sutta and various other suttas very well, so I don't have much to add.

Here is a previous discussion of the Maha-mangala Sutta
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3567&p=51895&hilit=mangala#p51815
and a link to the various ATI versions: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html

Suttas such as this, which emphasise "mundane" development don't seem to generate as much discussion as those where minute philosophical points can be argued over, but that doesn't make them less important. The Dighajanu Sutta, the Mangala Sutta, and so on, describe key bases for spiritual development. And, as I said, I thought your observations on the importance of the fifth precept, since it's the one that specifically mentions (lack of) mindfulness was very much to the point.

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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:12 am

I havn't kept up with the Study group since its creation, but I would of hoped that more interest would of been placed on those texts which actually describe or point to the practice rather than the philosophical over-toned ones.

anyway... May everyone be well and happy
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:41 pm

Cittasanto:

I havn't kept up with the Study group since its creation, but I would of hoped that more interest would of been placed on those texts which actually describe or point to the practice rather than the philosophical over-toned ones.


I think the more philosophical ones get more responses because that's what happens with philosophy; people argue and put forward their interpretations, etc.

Rest assured that I have been interested. And I guess lots of other people have been too! It is sometimes good to just read the Sutta, and have someone's thoughts on it. A bit like a friend passing you the book open at that page, and saying a few words about it. No response necessary, other than to express my appreciation. Please keep going, if you are minded to!
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Re: Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja/Byagghapajja) Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Sam Vega wrote: It is sometimes good to just read the Sutta, and have someone's thoughts on it. A bit like a friend passing you the book open at that page, and saying a few words about it. No response necessary, other than to express my appreciation. Please keep going, if you are minded to!

I agree. The words were very useful... :hug:

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