If I am not mistaken, the word "renunciation" or "renounce" is being used here in place of Sanskrit word sannyasa. However, "renunciation" is nyasa -not sannyasa. sannyasa should more correctly be translated as "dropping away" rather than "renounce".
For example, a child is very attached to his marbles. Then one day his father asks him to give up playing marbles. So this child takes a vow to never touch the marbles again. But he has not lost the rasa of playing marbles. In this sense he is a "nyasin" toward marbles - not "sannyasin". However, when the same child grows up he completely loses his earlier attachment toward his marbles. Note that now he does not have to "renounce" his attachment for marbles. The attachment gets simply "dropped" because the pursuit has become irrelevant. In other words now the person is "sannyasin" as far as marbles are concerned.
The point is that the whole debate about the issue of renouncing because someone feels that he is missing out on fun is misplaced. As long as one feels that one is losing something in "renouncing", then it is no renunciation at all. Such renunciation has no value and it is better to renounce such renunciation. Sannyasa is a natural happening when worldly pursuits become irrelevant. It is not an act of will that one can choose or not choose.
Regards,
We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
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Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Hi:
Astus over at Dharma Wheel posted links to this series of talks by Bhikkhu Cinita on lay Buddhist practice. I found them very useful.
Bhikkhu Cinita ordained later in life after his children grew up, so he's seen the topic from both sides.
Lay Buddhist Practice 1
The Art of Lay Life 2
The Art of Lay Life 3: Selecting Elements
The Art of Lay Life 4: Selecting Elements (cont.)
The Art of Lay Life 5: Rejecting Elements
The Art of Lay Life 6: Rejecting Elements (cont)
The Art of Lay Life 7: Balancing Elements
The Art of Lay Life 8: Balancing Elements (cont)
The Art of Lay Life 9: Simplifying
The Art of Lay Life 10: Lay and Monastic
The Art of Lay Life 11: Lay and Monastic (cont)
Astus over at Dharma Wheel posted links to this series of talks by Bhikkhu Cinita on lay Buddhist practice. I found them very useful.
Bhikkhu Cinita ordained later in life after his children grew up, so he's seen the topic from both sides.
Lay Buddhist Practice 1
The Art of Lay Life 2
The Art of Lay Life 3: Selecting Elements
The Art of Lay Life 4: Selecting Elements (cont.)
The Art of Lay Life 5: Rejecting Elements
The Art of Lay Life 6: Rejecting Elements (cont)
The Art of Lay Life 7: Balancing Elements
The Art of Lay Life 8: Balancing Elements (cont)
The Art of Lay Life 9: Simplifying
The Art of Lay Life 10: Lay and Monastic
The Art of Lay Life 11: Lay and Monastic (cont)
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Thanks for sharing lazy_eye! I've read the first two parts so far and am really enjoying it.
With gratitude and metta,
Jackson
With gratitude and metta,
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Hi,
Of course I can be wrong, but I think when it is time to go forth, one will know. It will not be some vague notion (to commence).
I think it can be detrimental to go forth before one is ripe.
I was considering it, and discussing this with a Thero monk in Sri Lanka, and I was expressing my doubts. He said, 'better to clear your doubts first'. And then, I was expressing the detrimental conditions of going back to society; he said. 'it is good, .. experience'.
I think in some sense, there is 'fate'. Not everyone has the opportunity to 'go forth' because of 'duty'. If one is unable to abandon their 'place' with a clear conscience, then maybe, it is not time to go; because once you have done damage to your 'spirit'/conscience, or stepped 'out of line', then that is a step in the wrong direction. In fact, it may be the case that by fulfilling 'duties', it lends one strength in the right path. (by 'duty', I mean something which cannot be abandoned with a clear conscience.)
With Metta,
Nori
Of course I can be wrong, but I think when it is time to go forth, one will know. It will not be some vague notion (to commence).
I think it can be detrimental to go forth before one is ripe.
I was considering it, and discussing this with a Thero monk in Sri Lanka, and I was expressing my doubts. He said, 'better to clear your doubts first'. And then, I was expressing the detrimental conditions of going back to society; he said. 'it is good, .. experience'.
I think in some sense, there is 'fate'. Not everyone has the opportunity to 'go forth' because of 'duty'. If one is unable to abandon their 'place' with a clear conscience, then maybe, it is not time to go; because once you have done damage to your 'spirit'/conscience, or stepped 'out of line', then that is a step in the wrong direction. In fact, it may be the case that by fulfilling 'duties', it lends one strength in the right path. (by 'duty', I mean something which cannot be abandoned with a clear conscience.)
With Metta,
Nori
Last edited by Nori on Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
freefall68 wrote:The point is that the whole debate about the issue of renouncing because someone feels that he is missing out on fun is misplaced. As long as one feels that one is losing something in "renouncing", then it is no renunciation at all. Such renunciation has no value and it is better to renounce such renunciation. Sannyasa is a natural happening when worldly pursuits become irrelevant. It is not an act of will that one can choose or not choose.
+1nameless wrote:I think the significance of renunciation is not just the 'not doing' of something, but also the attitude of renouncing. In the sense that, when you are not renouncing, you are clinging to the idea that "if only I do/get/avoid this, I will be happier in the future".
A very good thread. I share in these same thoughts and dilemmas..
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Hi
I've been reading through this thread, some interesting ideas here.
Has anyone considered that living in the world could be a good thing in terms of bringing up challenges that will promote spiritual growth and overcoming our karma in the world?
I can see that going to a monastery before getting to a peaceful state in every day life might be an escape from problems in your life. I can see how staying in the world until those issues are resolved could be beneficial.
I think life in society throws up far more trials than life in a monastery (not that I've lived in a monastery - I'm guessing). I'm not saying though there isn't a point where you need to go into seclusion to go further but I can imagine that it could be better to "overcome" some of the obstacles life throws up before doing so.
Andy
I've been reading through this thread, some interesting ideas here.
Has anyone considered that living in the world could be a good thing in terms of bringing up challenges that will promote spiritual growth and overcoming our karma in the world?
I can see that going to a monastery before getting to a peaceful state in every day life might be an escape from problems in your life. I can see how staying in the world until those issues are resolved could be beneficial.
I think life in society throws up far more trials than life in a monastery (not that I've lived in a monastery - I'm guessing). I'm not saying though there isn't a point where you need to go into seclusion to go further but I can imagine that it could be better to "overcome" some of the obstacles life throws up before doing so.
Andy
- Goofaholix
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Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
I have, so I'm not guessing. It's true that living in the "real world" throws up trials that you wouldn't get in a monastery, it's also true living in a monastery throws up trials that you wouldn't get in real life.Bevoir wrote:I think life in society throws up far more trials than life in a monastery (not that I've lived in a monastery - I'm guessing). I'm not saying though there isn't a point where you need to go into seclusion to go further but I can imagine that it could be better to "overcome" some of the obstacles life throws up before doing so.
Much of our modern lifestyle is about busying ourselves so that we don't have to face what's below the surface. There is so much entertainment noise and activity that bombards us every day that for many people this becomes an avoidance strategy, a way of avoiding or staying one step ahead of a sense of dissatifaction, lack, or confusion.
If someone is running from one lifestyle to the other then he/sshe hasn't learned the lessons that lifestyle presents, it's just grass is greener on the other side syndrome, if one has learned to be content and balanced in either lifestyle then that's heading in the right direction I think.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Bevoir,
I think that the Buddha taught avoidance as one of the strategies to use to deal with some of the negative things we encounter.......I'm wondering if someone can provide a reference which shows this.....
chownah
I think that the Buddha taught avoidance as one of the strategies to use to deal with some of the negative things we encounter.......I'm wondering if someone can provide a reference which shows this.....
chownah
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
This is perhaps the sort of thing you are thinking of:chownah wrote:Bevoir,
I think that the Buddha taught avoidance as one of the strategies to use to deal with some of the negative things we encounter.......I'm wondering if someone can provide a reference which shows this.....
chownah
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
Mike
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
I agree completely, but I have stumbled on a (partial, anyway) solution for myself which may be useful to others: as I began on the path, I became less interested in many of the distractions of modern life - from fashions in clothing and food, to 'reality' TV, to most spectator sport, to most of the rest of what is on TV, etc - and each one that I stopped pursuing gave me a bit more time and mental space for the path. It set up a 'virtuous circle' as opposed to the 'vicious circle' of dissatisfaction - greed - distraction. It wasn't something I forced and (maybe because of that) it has been very slow and is still developing, but it has been completely stress-free at every step.Goofaholix wrote:Much of our modern lifestyle is about busying ourselves so that we don't have to face what's below the surface. There is so much entertainment noise and activity that bombards us every day that for many people this becomes an avoidance strategy, a way of avoiding or staying one step ahead of a sense of dissatifaction, lack, or confusion.
Kim
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Yes, living throws up trialsGoofaholix wrote:It's true that living in the "real world" throws up trials that you wouldn't get in a monastery, it's also true living in a monastery throws up trials that you wouldn't get in real life.
Kind regards
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
As I've said, I've never lived in a monastery so I won't truly know unless that happens and I also come to this discussion with baggage from certain other paths but...
You're obviously going to the monastery because it provides advantages versus the lay style of life in following the Theravada path.
I argue that those very advantages stem partly from the avoidance of many of the hastles of every day life. Such as supporting yourself and others and becoming successful. Leading a successful lay life in all aspects of your life can be very difficult as many of us are well aware.
I argue that those very obstacles to leading that type of life could potentially be obstacles in your mind that you will take with you to the monastery where they will not be provoked into arising and thus overcome.
If you take the view that in a monastery ALL obstacles will arise inspite of the circumstances provoking them not being present then fair enough. Or if you take the view that it's not necessary to overcome all mental obstacles and limitations then living in a monastery at whatever stage of life would be advantageous.
However, and I might be wrong on this, I tend to think that it is important to overcome those obstacles and that they won't arise if a you're in a monastery.
For example, if I were to become a hermit and eschew all human contact, and I this was motivated out of my fear of people then I believe no amount of meditation would allow me to overcome that without interacting with people in order to provoke those karmic tendencies.
Having said that, I agree that avoidance is useful in those activities that are too detrimental to spiritual progress.
Life does throw up obstacles. But to varying degrees according to the circumstances.
You're obviously going to the monastery because it provides advantages versus the lay style of life in following the Theravada path.
I argue that those very advantages stem partly from the avoidance of many of the hastles of every day life. Such as supporting yourself and others and becoming successful. Leading a successful lay life in all aspects of your life can be very difficult as many of us are well aware.
I argue that those very obstacles to leading that type of life could potentially be obstacles in your mind that you will take with you to the monastery where they will not be provoked into arising and thus overcome.
If you take the view that in a monastery ALL obstacles will arise inspite of the circumstances provoking them not being present then fair enough. Or if you take the view that it's not necessary to overcome all mental obstacles and limitations then living in a monastery at whatever stage of life would be advantageous.
However, and I might be wrong on this, I tend to think that it is important to overcome those obstacles and that they won't arise if a you're in a monastery.
For example, if I were to become a hermit and eschew all human contact, and I this was motivated out of my fear of people then I believe no amount of meditation would allow me to overcome that without interacting with people in order to provoke those karmic tendencies.
Having said that, I agree that avoidance is useful in those activities that are too detrimental to spiritual progress.
Life does throw up obstacles. But to varying degrees according to the circumstances.
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Bevoir,
Could it be that you have the opinion that there are a certain number of things which must be accomplished in life and for enlightenment to happen one must conquer these things?....and that these things present themselves as obstructions which we must overcome? That's what I get from reading your posts. I think this idea is mistaken in general and specifically I think that there is nothing in the Buddha's teachings to support that idea. If this were so then I think there would be something somewhere in the Teachings which talked about dealing with these things before becoming a monk or something indicating that lay life needs to be "accomplished" before becoming a monk. Becoming a monk is often described as "going into homelessness"....and is accomplished by just getting a robe and bowl, takings some vows, and then getting on with being a monk and just leaving all that old lay business behind and not looking back. Don't you think that if some kind of resolution of some kind of "life problem" was a good thing that it would at least be mentioned somewhere?
chownah
Could it be that you have the opinion that there are a certain number of things which must be accomplished in life and for enlightenment to happen one must conquer these things?....and that these things present themselves as obstructions which we must overcome? That's what I get from reading your posts. I think this idea is mistaken in general and specifically I think that there is nothing in the Buddha's teachings to support that idea. If this were so then I think there would be something somewhere in the Teachings which talked about dealing with these things before becoming a monk or something indicating that lay life needs to be "accomplished" before becoming a monk. Becoming a monk is often described as "going into homelessness"....and is accomplished by just getting a robe and bowl, takings some vows, and then getting on with being a monk and just leaving all that old lay business behind and not looking back. Don't you think that if some kind of resolution of some kind of "life problem" was a good thing that it would at least be mentioned somewhere?
chownah
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Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
Sounds like you and I have similar methods. Little by little is the water pot filled with the positive as I, little by little, siphon off the negative.Kim O'Hara wrote:I have stumbled on a (partial, anyway) solution for myself which may be useful to others: as I began on the path, I became less interested in many of the distractions of modern life - from fashions in clothing and food, to 'reality' TV, to most spectator sport, to most of the rest of what is on TV, etc - and each one that I stopped pursuing gave me a bit more time and mental space for the path. It set up a 'virtuous circle' as opposed to the 'vicious circle' of dissatisfaction - greed - distraction. It wasn't something I forced and (maybe because of that) it has been very slow and is still developing, but it has been completely stress-free at every step.
Hickersonia
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
Re: We don't want to renounce. We want to have fun.
[quote="chownah"]Bevoir,
Could it be that you have the opinion that there are a certain number of things which must be accomplished in life and for enlightenment to happen one must conquer these things?....and that these things present themselves as obstructions which we must overcome?
Hi Chownah, yes that's right. From previous things I learnt it was taught that our live is a reflection of our thinking. The path laid out that it is important to overcome those limitations so we can regain control of our minds rather than the mind being the boss of us. Once we're supposedly in a more dominant position it's easier then to use atma vichara and go all the way.
That's what I get from reading your posts. I think this idea is mistaken in general and specifically I think that there is nothing in the Buddha's teachings to support that idea.
I'm willing to accept that this might be a mistaken view. I'm just arguing the ideas though - debating them to see if there's a reason why a Buddhist would think it's not a valid view.
I think inspite of what you say we have to make our own decisions and judgements in the end and more generally to whether to follow a Buddhist path at all or some other path.
Could it be that you have the opinion that there are a certain number of things which must be accomplished in life and for enlightenment to happen one must conquer these things?....and that these things present themselves as obstructions which we must overcome?
Hi Chownah, yes that's right. From previous things I learnt it was taught that our live is a reflection of our thinking. The path laid out that it is important to overcome those limitations so we can regain control of our minds rather than the mind being the boss of us. Once we're supposedly in a more dominant position it's easier then to use atma vichara and go all the way.
That's what I get from reading your posts. I think this idea is mistaken in general and specifically I think that there is nothing in the Buddha's teachings to support that idea.
I'm willing to accept that this might be a mistaken view. I'm just arguing the ideas though - debating them to see if there's a reason why a Buddhist would think it's not a valid view.
I think inspite of what you say we have to make our own decisions and judgements in the end and more generally to whether to follow a Buddhist path at all or some other path.