(The failure to) Go West

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pink_trike
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by pink_trike »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Pure and Good? No, I've never said that. Just saying that if it's a house of cards that's being built, at least start with a solid foundation so that wind meets mountain.
- Delusions of grandeur and attainment.
- Clinical depression.
- Psychosis.
- Extreme intellectual rigidity, or extreme lack of personal boundaries.
- OCD
- runaway magical thinking
For many humans, the irrationality of religion serves as a gateway for the egoic embracement of other irrational mind-states
Religion, including Buddhism if it is engaged with religiosity, is easy pickin's for the crafty ego in it's quest to run the show.
I've seen it happen to some, what Pink Trike describes. The mind can be a dangerous place. It's the person not the religion, of course. But I don't think PT is really putting the responsibility on Buddhism.
:|
Hi Ngawang Drolma,

Actually, I do put the responsibility squarely on any institutionalized religion (Buddhism included) that doesn't acknowledge that what they widely disperse is potentially mind-altering and potentially dangerous to many people, especially in this time/place when the collective human mind is in a near barbaric state of confusion, alienation, and disconnection from the natural world. There was a time when the mysteries and related practices required initiation and close supervision, and were only given to those who were believed to be capable of integrating them safely, and who had been very carefully trained over long periods of time to receive them in a way that didn't endanger them - in environments that helped keep the initiate on the right path.

Imo, when the the mysteries are widely dispersed via mainstream publication channels or urban teaching centers (that resemble factories) that have no time for individual consultation (both frequently resulting in enormous profit - but that's another topic) and without personal supervision or care about the mental states of those who blunder into the teachings - this defines religious corruption. It really is no different than letting our children grow up sitting in front of the violence box for years and then wondering why there is so much violence in our world. It should be no surprise that mind-altering practices (mind-training practices) combined with religious irrationality can potentially cause mental disorders.

The human mind tends to default toward literality and irrationality - so great care must be taken to make sure that what is put into it doesn't harm or result in thicker literality or deeper irrationality. At this point in the evolution of religion, much harm is being done to many people, and countless people are being led deeper into delusion that can result in any number of mental dis-eases or pathologies. Unfortunately most institutionalized religions have built a wall between them and the field of psychology (and the natural world). The field of psychotherapy is all to often left to clean up their messes. Religion has turned into a cheap drug for the masses, with the same dangerous potential as street drugs.
Last edited by pink_trike on Thu May 07, 2009 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Pink_Trike,

Although I'm not sure I agree with you about where to place the responsibility, I definitely agree that religion can be powerful medicine. And it should be dispensed carefully. In the wrong hands it's easy for disasters to happen, as you so aptly pointed out. It's strange where we've gone with this in the US. George Dubya used to talk publicly about his experiences of god talking to him :rolleye:

Best,
Drolma
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pink_trike
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by pink_trike »

Ngawang Drolma wrote: It's strange where we've gone with this in the US. George Dubya used to talk publicly about his experiences of god talking to him :rolleye:
Yes. :cookoo: And in the U.S. regular church-goers are significantly more likely to approve of torture than those who go to church infrequently or not at all. There is a stark lesson in those statistics.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

It freaks me out a little. I joined the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster because they actively petition the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools (outside of World Religion class). I think the thing that bothered me the most about George Dubya and his conversations with god is that nobody questioned it much. Comedians and late night show hosts should have been slapping that down silly. And Sarah Palin wanted Creationism taught in public schools, yet no one seemed too concerned about that. They were more concerned with how much she was paying for her wardrobe. What about those of us for whom Christianity isn't compatible? Or our children?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Ceisiwr »

And which creationist speculaitve myth to teach, christian? Hindu? Shinto? ancient greek? Egyptian religion?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pink_trike
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by pink_trike »

pink_trike wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote: It's strange where we've gone with this in the US. George Dubya used to talk publicly about his experiences of god talking to him :rolleye:
Yes. :cookoo: And in the U.S. regular church-goers are significantly more likely to approve of torture than those who go to church infrequently or not at all. There is a stark lesson about religion and the mind in those statistics.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

That's a very interesting statistic, Pink_Trike.

:anjali:
vitellius
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by vitellius »

Here is a research on similarities in Greek philosophy and Indian yoga (in broad sense):
The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vpqr1v ... frontcover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To my opinion some similarities presented in this book are just similarities, but there is also some evidence of borrowing.

It seems that at least part of Greek philosophy was what in India would be called "yoga" - or "personal development" and "self-improvement" in modern times. Pyrrho(nism), Stoicism, Cynicism, Epicureanism, (Neo)platonism - all these included ethical systems (sometimes involving asceticism) and mental training aimed at reaching dispassionateness and happiness. If not inspired by, these philosophies were at least influenced by Indian samana teachings, - probably including early Buddhism.
termite
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by termite »

pink_trike wrote:Actually, I do put the responsibility squarely on any institutionalized religion (Buddhism included) that doesn't acknowledge that what they widely disperse is potentially mind-altering and potentially dangerous to many people, especially in this time/place when the collective human mind is in a near barbaric state of confusion, alienation, and disconnection from the natural world.
I'm sure that the problem lies somewhere there... Yeah, the "mind-altering" is surely the problem. ;)
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Dan74
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Dan74 »

pink_trike wrote: Likely for some of these mind-states the seeds were already present when the person discovered Buddhism, but for some people psychopathology clearly emerges after their engagement with Buddhism (also true with other forms of religion) and for many become increasingly worse the longer they practiced/studied. It's easy to say that they just didn't have right view, or that they weren't practicing incorrectly, or that they needed more sangha/teacher support, but these are all rationalizations. The mind doesn't have a neat and orderly way of allowing one form of irrationality while precisely not allowing other forms of irrationality. For many humans, the irrationality of religion serves as a gateway for the egoic embracement of other irrational mind-states. Religion, including Buddhism if it is engaged with religiosity, is easy pickin's for the crafty ego in it's quest to run the show. The idea that Buddhism is benign isn't consistent with reality. It is mind-altering, and just like with mind-altering substances, not everyone has a good trip.
I feel that this is an extremely important point and one that is heard all too rarely.

Are people really helped by discovering the Dharma? I heard Joshu Sasaki Roshi, a 102-year-old Rinzai Zen teacher in the US, quoted as saying that a typical Westerner really needs years of therapy before they are ready for Zen.

Around the fora especially one sees so often that the Dharma becomes just another tool in the ego's neurotic arsenal.

The Buddha was a healer, we say, and his medicine is still effective. And yet, many are made more sick by (mis)application of it. In prison I have often felt that the Dharma is just not accessible to some. Although the fault is probably with me and the way I share it.

On the other hand, having come (rather involuntarily) to our Vesak celebration in the Town Hall the other day, I thought for a moment how much more wholesome and natural are things like the alternative festival, or just a simple street party, where people participate, are joyful, feel a sense of togetherness, rather than sitting in a dark hall, looking at a bunch of kids singing off-key or a Venerable droning on in an incomprehensible accent. This is a celebration of the greatest being and our greatest potential?? :shrug:

:cry:

_/|\_
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pink_trike
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by pink_trike »

Dan74 wrote:
Are people really helped by discovering the Dharma? I heard Joshu Sasaki Roshi, a 102-year-old Rinzai Zen teacher in the US, quoted as saying that a typical Westerner really needs years of therapy before they are ready for Zen.

Around the fora especially one sees so often that the Dharma becomes just another tool in the ego's neurotic arsenal.

The Buddha was a healer, we say, and his medicine is still effective. And yet, many are made more sick by (mis)application of it.
I agree...(with the understanding that when we refer to "the Dharma" - it always begs the question "who's Dharma?")

Many people are helped by discovering the 4NT/8FP, cause and effect, interdependence, meditation, and metta practice (much beyond that, I'm less certain how many) but for vast many people the modern mind is very entrenched and very fragile - and these same discoveries that can benefit some people are so unconsciously threatening to many modern people's sense of structured reality that to encounter them results in irrational defense mechanisms arising in an attempt to compensate for the loss of ego primacy - to somewhere find solid ground again at any intra-psychic cost.

As more Westerners encounter Buddhism, especially via the internet or Amazon.com, without benefit of Sangha or supervision - not everyone's mind is going to move gracefully from a relied upon "solid" sense of "self" through the systematic unraveling of that delusion of solidity via the Dharma. Imo, add in a splash of virgin birth, invisible beings, "not-self", literal rebirth, heavens and hells, filth and evil, miracles, etc... - and there we've got a very potent stew that results in a bad trip for many folks, and for many others - just more to get sticky with and hang onto as if it were a life jacket. Many people are going to encounter their hidden (or not so hidden) demons and hells in their own mind the further they proceed into "Buddhism". Many others are going to use Buddhism to further concretize the patterns of their mind. Teachers who underestimate the raw state of the modern mind are putting some people at risk for experiencing mind-states that neither student or teacher know how to deal with. Buddhism is not "one size fits all", especially in this time.

I've noticed over the years that some teachers are very sensitive to this - usually in small centers where the contact between teacher and student is more regular and intimate. Care is taken to introduce all students to very basic instruction and meditation. When they encounter their many students who have a highly-abstractified, tightly-strucrtured view of reality or who's mind moves easily with the winds, they would give these types of students very simple instructions and practice - and repeatedly steer them away from the abstractions and supernatural aspects of the Dharma. I've also heard several teachers recommend therapy generally, and also specifically to some students.

In larger centers and in urban areas, this is often not the case - it takes a lot of money to pay for those big, beautiful centers so they have to play to a packed house (that's not cynicism - I've manned the phones and did the advertising for events/teachings/ceremonies that I now believe should have been closed to the general public). And for the hundreds of thousands who's only encounter with the Dharma is electronic or printed, there's no teacher to observe the quality of change and to set limits or change strategy.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Dan74
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

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pink trike wrote:I've noticed over the years that some teachers are very sensitive to this - usually in small centers where the contact between teacher and student is more regular and intimate. Care is taken to introduce all students to very basic instruction and meditation. When they encounter their many students who have a highly-abstractified, tightly-strucrtured view of reality or who's mind moves easily with the winds, they would give these types of students very simple instructions and practice - and repeatedly steer them away from the abstractions and supernatural aspects of the Dharma. I've also heard several teachers recommend therapy generally, and also specifically to some students.

In larger centers and in urban areas, this is often not the case - it takes a lot of money to pay for those big, beautiful centers so they have to play to a packed house (that's not cynicism - I've manned the phones and did the advertising for events/teachings/ceremonies that I now believe should have been closed to the general public). And for the hundreds of thousands who's only encounter with the Dharma is electronic or printed, there's no teacher to observe the quality of change and to set limits or change strategy.
This is how I feel too, except that my experience has been very limited.

It seems that real gems are found off the main road, often in obscurity. Some genuine teachers become big and carry this task out of necessity of spreading the dharma. But I suspect that for practice purposes it is better to be with someone less high-profile and more committed to practice than to propagation of dharma.

Our Theravada friends don't seem to be big on student-teacher contact though, so this may be a conversation for a very small audience...

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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Our Theravada friends don't seem to be big on student-teacher contact though, so this may be a conversation for a very small audience...
I think the main difference is that in Theravada it's less hierarchial... you can learn things from any number of people, and they may even happen to learn things from you too. Those who are skilled in samatha should help those who are skilled in vipassana, and vice versa. There's less inclination to classify one as the "teacher" and one as the "student". To that extent there's more self-reliance in terms of framing your path, which thankfully isn't as daunting as it seems, as there is a lot of guidance in the Pali Canon for practitioners at all stages of the path.

In fact, most of the perspectives that seem "distorted" in my opinion, tend to arise because someone has exclusively taken their wisdom from a single teacher, without cross referencing other teachers or the Pali Canon.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro, Dan & All

I started a thread a while ago that this line of thought reminds me of
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... chers#p701" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This thread started when a teacher I have some contact with talked about his teacher, and mentioned that he was sent by his teacher to different monks to learn from them.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Our Theravada friends don't seem to be big on student-teacher contact though, so this may be a conversation for a very small audience...
I think the main difference is that in Theravada it's less hierarchial... you can learn things from any number of people, and they may even happen to learn things from you too. Those who are skilled in samatha should help those who are skilled in vipassana, and vice versa. There's less inclination to classify one as the "teacher" and one as the "student". To that extent there's more self-reliance in terms of framing your path, which thankfully isn't as daunting as it seems, as there is a lot of guidance in the Pali Canon for practitioners at all stages of the path.

In fact, most of the perspectives that seem "distorted" in my opinion, tend to arise because someone has exclusively taken their wisdom from a single teacher, without cross referencing other teachers or the Pali Canon.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by mikenz66 »

Dan74 wrote: Our Theravada friends don't seem to be big on student-teacher contact though, so this may be a conversation for a very small audience...
I'm big on student-teacher contact...

However, as others indicate, there's not a guru relationship. I have learned from several teachers, partly for practical reasons (living in different places, monks coming and going...). I would disagree a little with Retro about the relationship, however. It's clear to me who the student is. I'm not going to be teaching much to someone who's been a monk for ten, twenty, thirty years... [Of course, I can sometimes be somewhat helpful to my fellow students, but that's a different issue.]

Metta
Mike
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