Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Gregor
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Gregor »

Thanks Ben for the effort, I will copy/paste and study this so that next time I'm on the retreat I know which chanting is 'on the menu'.
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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Ben »

No problem, Gregor.
Though, next time you're on retreat, I recommend that you maintain your focus on the meditation rather than worry about something else.
Aversion to craving is actually very common among those new to Goenka retreats. When you're involved in a very intense vipassana retreat, negativity rises to the forefront of the mind and it virtually takes any object. If its not the chanting, then its the food or its the accommodation or the bathrooms or the fact that men and women are segregated. For the vast majority of old students who make it to the long courses, they find that instead of dealing with aversion they begin to deal with craving - which is far more insidious and difficult to deal with.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Sidney
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Sidney »

I suppose the chantings are done to protect you from interference when you do meditation seriously in courses.
They are rituals that you need to bear with, a duty of a teacher to protect his pupils from unseen interferences.
Since you may be new to this culture the course organiser should let you know ahead what are they meant for.
You need to be patient as they are meant for your protection. If you are a serious meditator you will know what I meant to say, but for new yogis from different background, indeed they are boring and may not have experienced any interference yet.
I myself felt the same when I first heard the chanting tapes many decades ago, even though I came from such a background. I am not a pupil of Goenkaji but I am writing this as I know the purpose of these chantings.
Sidney
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James the Giant
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by James the Giant »

I used to hate the chanting, but now after 9 courses I find it surrounds and enfolds me like a warm noisy blanket in the cold pre-dawn darkness.
It both soothes me and carries me along in a torrent of sound and vibration, through those two difficult hours between waking and eating.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
ertner
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by ertner »

wow... it was great reading all these responses. i just came back from my first course two days ago and have to admit that Goenka's chanting (his english instruction as well) was the absolute number one reason that i feel as though i missed out on vipassana completely and might have wasted 10 days of my time... it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.

i realize that this sounds ignorant, but it was my honest experience at the time: sitting there in the dhamma hall, cut off from everything i know and allowed to talk to no one... it almost felt to me like he was putting on a show and kinda hamming it up a bit. i didn't want to hear a relatively lengthy bit about "start again, start again".... i just wanted to, well... start again.

it greatly affected my mental silence.

hopefully, vipassasa will start to make sense after the fact. but, i wish i'd known about the pervasiveness of the chanting and was able to steel myself for it long before i made the trek out there.

i hope this doesn't sound like i'm hating... i'm just very confused by what i just experienced.

thanks and feedback is appreciated.
David2
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by David2 »

it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.
That's just your mind looking for excuses.
Not the chanting was the reason for you getting distracted, but the state of your mind.

In my opinion, Goenkaji's chanting does not sound badly at all.
It's repetitive, yes, but that are many things on a retreat and many things in life as well.
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

David2 wrote:
it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.
That's just your mind looking for excuses.
Not the chanting was the reason for you getting distracted, but the state of your mind.

In my opinion, Goenkaji's chanting does not sound badly at all.
It's repetitive, yes, but that are many things on a retreat and many things in life as well.
It has to be said that a retreat is a conscious decision to be separate from the world and you would appreciate the optimum conditions. In the Buddha's time there were many instances of his monks having trouble meditating due to adverse conditions. The Buddha did not advise them to 'suck it up', instead he advised them to move or do metta. I personally have not come across an argument that convinces me of the Dhammic necessity for the all day chanting. I have stayed in monastery's where the chanting is a morning and evening thing and more importantly it is an inclusive event, doing a certain amount of chanting by 'oneself' definitely has a Dhammic purpose. Being chanted at always made me a little uneasy. When I broached the subject of chanting it was waved away as something that creates 'good vibrations' or is something the teacher 'has to do'. I am not aware of the Buddha teaching in such a way when his monks were trying to meditate in seclusion, it would be a matter of a discourse by the Buddha then seclusion. Chanting can be viewed by some as 'magical words' especially if an alien language is used. I could actually see the advantage of being chanted at if that chanting was done in our mother tongue- then it would become a teaching and not just sounds.

Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ertner,
ertner wrote:i hope this doesn't sound like i'm hating... i'm just very confused by what i just experienced.
In the framework of the instructions you could have observed the feeling (vedana) of the physical manifestations (kaya-sankhara) you created as a result of your aversion. Thus, continuing with your specified practice, despite the presence of what was (to you) unpleasant vedana. In other words, integrating it into what you were supposed to be doing, rather than allowing it to destroy what you were supposed to be cultivating.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ertner,
ertner wrote:i hope this doesn't sound like i'm hating... i'm just very confused by what i just experienced.
In the framework of the instructions you could have observed the feeling (vedana) of the physical manifestations (kaya-sankhara) you created as a result of your aversion. Thus, continuing with your specified practice, despite the presence of what was (to you) unpleasant vedana. In other words, integrating it into what you were supposed to be doing, rather than allowing it to destroy what you were supposed to be cultivating.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile: It almost borders on the tantric idea of putting oneself in certain situations or generating certain feelings - just to 'face' them down. Life is unpleasant enough without any encouragement.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat?
No, but to mentally disintegrate under the weight of aversion, in the present of unpleasant-vedana, isn't the purpose of a retreat, either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Ben »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
Well said, Goof!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, ...............
If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
This is the practise, the middle way, half way between hedonism and asceticism.

You draw the line by fully embracing the unpleasant and realising it can't hurt you, a little chanting never hurt anyone, it's just a preference. Now if Goenka pulled out a chainsaw and started disembowling his students that would be a signal to beat a hasty retreat, pardon the pun.

If one continues to try and arrange everything in life in such a way as to avoid the unpleasant and get more of the pleasant then it's just a game, one that doesn't lead to the end of suffering.

As Ajahn Chah said "There are two kinds of suffering : the suffering which leads to more suffering, and the suffering which leads to the end of suffering. The first is the pain of grasping after fleeting pleasures and aversion for the unpleasant, the continued struggle of most people day after day. The second is the suffering which comes when you allow yourself to feel fully the constant change of experience - fear or withdrawal. Thesuffering of our experience lead to inner fearlessness and peace."

I'd have thought this was Buddhism 101.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
The purpose of the retreat setting is to facilitate an environment which supports investigation into vedana... its purpose isn't to provide pleasant-vedana, anymore than its purpose is to provide unpleasant-vedana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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