Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
The purpose of the retreat setting is to facilitate an environment which supports investigation into vedana... its purpose isn't to provide pleasant-vedana, anymore than its purpose it to provide unpleasant-vedana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
A retreats purpose is to foster an environment where one can calmly deal with the ups & downs of meditation, including investigation of vedana. If that environment adds stress rather than decreasing it then it becomes a problem. To cultivate calm is not to run away from unpleasant vedana, rather it is a pro-active way of dealing with them. This process is not a picnic, any extraneous difficulties that are deliberately made part of the retreat cannot be conducive to development. Being chanted to is not a problem for some people, for others it is an un-wished for intrusion. It might be better, if one could opt in or out of the chanting.

Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,

I'm not disagreeing with that - only saying that (given that sitting through Goenka's chanting is a mandatory part of the syllabus) that the meditator should be aiming integrate it into the practice they are being asked to follow, rather than get carried away by their negative emotional response to it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,

I'm not disagreeing with that - only saying that (given that sitting through Goenka's chanting is a mandatory part of the syllabus) that the meditator should be aiming integrate it into the practice they are being asked to follow, rather than get carried away by their negative emotional response to it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Agreed. Perhaps the large amount of chanting that takes place as part of the syllabus should be made clearer to newbies beforehand.

Metta

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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:A retreats purpose is to foster an environment where one can calmly deal with the ups & downs of meditation, including investigation of vedana. If that environment adds stress rather than decreasing it then it becomes a problem. To cultivate calm is not to run away from unpleasant vedana, rather it is a pro-active way of dealing with them. This process is not a picnic, any extraneous difficulties that are deliberately made part of the retreat cannot be conducive to development. Being chanted to is not a problem for some people, for others it is an un-wished for intrusion. It might be better, if one could opt in or out of the chanting.
I'd agree with you that the chanting is an un-wished for intrusion for a lot of us. However life is full of un-wished for intrusion and if one can't learn to deal with un-wished for intrusion in a calm way while on retreat what hope is there for busy day to day life.

Personally I choose to go back to my room during the big session before breakfast, I also choose not to create aversion at other times, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

One can choose whether sense contact is classed as intrusion or not, for example car horns are often classed as intrusion whereas birdsong is not and yet the same process of hearing is taking place.

Ultimately if one is practising insight meditation rather than concentration meditation nothing is classed as intrusion.
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote: I'd agree with you that the chanting is an un-wished for intrusion for a lot of us. However life is full of un-wished for intrusion and if one can't learn to deal with un-wished for intrusion in a calm way while on retreat what hope is there for busy day to day life.
I've only done one Goenka retreat, in Hong Kong back in 2007 so my memory may be a little fuzzy. Personally, I didn't particularly care for the chanting either (I'm used to Thai-style chanting) but as I recall it was only that morning session, so not that big a deal. We also had to contend with some pile driving in the next properly that sometimes shook the whole building...

On retreats here I often have the sound of a ride-on mower and other garden maintenance. Not to mention earthquakes... :jumping:

As others have said, these are all opportunities for practice. And see this from Ajahn Chah: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p158780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

:juggling:
I often have to contend with screaming kids, planes, lawn mowers, telephones etc. etc. and these intrusions are indeed a learning lesson.
However, if I had the choice I would never intentionally invite these intrusions and would do my best to limit their impact on me. The idea of putting oneself in situations to test an ability to deal with vedana is, I suppose one path of practise.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:The idea of putting oneself in situations to test an ability to deal with vedana is, I suppose one path of practise.
A considerable portion of Theravada monasticism hinges on just that, so by comparison a little unwanted noise shouldn't be a big drama for a hardened retreatant.

After a while you get to the stage if things are too calm that you have nothing in particular coming up, nothing to work with, no raw material for insight.

At that time putting oneself in situations to test an ability to deal with vedana is a good idea, this is the idea behind monks going on tudong.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by mikenz66 »

I don't go looking to create problems, but as Goof says, thats what you have to deal with eventually, so you might as well be prepared...

Perhaps slightly off topic, one of the most useful "minor insights" I had was on a retreat, just after I'd trimmed the pine trees down the back of the property (the Wat is in a semi-rural area of market gardens, etc) so I could walk under the trees in the shade without hitting the branches.

One day I went out and some kids had been playing in the area setting fire to sticks, which were now scattered all over my walking path. I had this brief flash of:
  • "Those damn kids, ruining my careful retreat preparation...! :evil:"
I don't think I got quite so far as thinking:
  • "Now I'll never get enlightened, dammit". :twisted:
Which is how I've heard some teachers tell similar stories... :sage:

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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Ben »

I don't mind the chanting. In fact, when I am at home I often play U Ba Khin's chant of the Tikapatthana during meditation or SN Goenka chanting the Atanatiya Sutta or the Satipatthana Sutta. But I do understand that some people find the chanting really difficult to deal with.
During the (introductory) ten-day courses the 2-hour session before breakfast which includes approx 1 hour of chanting is optional. One can stay in one's room to meditate during that session. There are opening and closing chants for the three group sits during the day and the chanting in those one hour sits only last for a few minutes each.
During the long courses there is less chanting. The two-hour session before breakfast does still have chanting but unless your in the hall (most people prefer to meditate in their bedroom or their pagoda cell) then you don't hear it. And there is only one group sit during the day which one has to attend and there is virtually no chanting during that sit.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The idea of putting oneself in situations to test an ability to deal with vedana is, I suppose one path of practise.
...............
At that time putting oneself in situations to test an ability to deal with vedana is a good idea, this is the idea behind monks going on tudong.
Ah, now I understand where the chanting is coming from and maybe the thinking behind it.

As far as what is a suitable retreat environment, we need look no further than the sutta's...
"I trust, Master Ananda, that the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat."

"Certainly, brahman, the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat because of guardians & protectors like yourself."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"He whose eyes are open has described
the Dhamma he's witnessed,
subduing danger.
Now tell us, sir, the practice:
the code of discipline & concentration."

"One shouldn't be careless with his eyes,
should close his ears to village-talk,
shouldn't hunger for flavors,
or view anything in the world
as mine.
When touched by contact
he shouldn't lament,
shouldn't covet anywhere any
states of becoming,
or tremble at terrors.
When gaining food & drink,
staples & cloth,
he should not make a hoard.
Nor should he be upset
when receiving no gains.
Absorbed, not foot-loose,
he should refrain from restlessness,
shouldn't be heedless,
should live in a noise-less abode.
Not making much of sleep,
ardent, given to wakefulness,
he should abandon sloth, deception,
laughter, sports,
fornication, & all that goes with it;
should not practice charms,
interpret physical marks, dreams,
the stars, animal cries;
should not be devoted to
practicing medicine or inducing fertility.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta

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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
As I understand that is not the purpose of a retreat in the Goenka sub-tradition. As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:As far as what is a suitable retreat environment, we need look no further than the sutta's...
For the first sutta if you look 2 paragraphs down you'll see this;
"Certainly, Master Ananda, the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat because of venerable ones who are endowed with mental absorption (jhana), who make mental absorption their habit. You venerable ones are both endowed with mental absorption & make mental absorption your habit."
So this recommendation is for those who wish to practise mental absorption (jhana), and for that of course the more prefect and quiet and sublime the conditions the better. Remember, though, that Goenka teaches insight meditation for which quiet and perfect conditions are not necessary.

Now if you have a natural ability for that, or have a few months or years to spare, or perfect conditions then I'd say go for it, otherwise better to work on insight which is the topic of this thread.

The end of the first paragraph of the second quote ends with;
"Now tell us, sir, the practice:
the code of discipline & concentration."
Reading through the quote it's obvious the code of discipline refers to the monks vinaya as the passage is very oriented towards monks, and of course it mentions concentration there also, aka mental absorption (jhana). So yes if you want to cultivate concentration a monks life would be a good one, but I'm not sure you can make all that happen with a 10 day retreat which is why most retreats are insight meditation oriented.

Of course it's true that insight and concentration go hand in hand and developing one leads to the other but it's only if you want to develop jhana that idyllic conditions are needed I think.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
What Mr Man is referring to is during the preliminary formalities, SN Goenka asks students to "surrender to the current teacher". Surrender is explained that one merely does as instructed. Leaving aside any previous practices and devoting oneself exclusively to the practice of Vipassana as taught by SN Goenka for the period of ten days. But surrender is not the point of a ten-day course. The point of a ten-day course is to learn and develop some depth of experience in sila (five precepts), samadhi (samatha variant of anapana-sati) and panna (vipassana via vedananupassana).
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
My point is that the rationalization given is outside of the scope of the technique.
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