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On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Brizzy
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Brizzy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:30 am

Ignorance is an intentional act.

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kirk5a
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:50 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:44 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

chownah
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:49 pm

Some people, when asked, "What is your doctrine concerning the existence of self", will answer, "My doctrine concerning the existence of self is that self does exist."

Some people, when asked, "What is your doctrine concerning the existence of self", will answer, "My doctrine concerning the existence of self is that self does not exist."

Both groups of people have a doctrine of self.

The Buddha advises us to have no doctrine of self whatever.

Some people, when asked, "What is your doctrine concerning the existence of self", will answer, "I don't really have a doctrine concerning the existence of self because I have never found anything in my experience which could possibly be construed as being self and I have no way of knowing about anything which might exist or not exist outside of my experience so I don't have enough data from which to construct a doctrine concerning the existence of self....I have no view on the matter."

chownah

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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:30 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Zom
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Zom » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:21 pm

Btw, Right / Wrong ditthis have nothing to do with conventional "self". They deal with ultimate-reality self.

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beeblebrox
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:26 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:59 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:17 pm

Views on substantiality; the ‘six positions on views’ (chayimāni … diṭṭhiṭṭhānāni), improper consideration (ayonisomanasikāra) – were those of the puthujjana. The Buddha’s denial of Self is no mere view.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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daverupa
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:28 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:39 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:13 pm

Anattā doctrine is both denial of the Upaniṣadic Self, and instruction on how, through contemplative knowledge, the habit of reification is broken down. It is not annihilationism because it is rooted in an understanding paṭiccasamuppāda.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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daverupa
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:03 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:01 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

vinasp
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby vinasp » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:07 am

Hi everyone,

The following quotation is from - No-Self or Not-Self? - by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

"In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside."

I believe that this is a serious misunderstanding of the teachings of the Sutta
pitaka, and should be challenged.

Where does the Buddha say this?

Regards, Vincent.

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Goofaholix
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:13 am


vinasp
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby vinasp » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:31 am

Hi Goofaholix,

SN 44.10 is misunderstood by many. The eternalist view and the anihilationist
view are both views about a self.

These views are always rejected. Also the no-self teaching was, at the time,
probably not given to "outsiders".

Regards, Vincent.

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:33 am

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:45 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:22 am

I have been looking at the responces to Vincents quote, and feel it should be noted that many of SN44 has this question, it is even an aspect of two of the ten questions (all of which were put aside).

although in the reference given gives a reason not the same as the other instances, so a context is differing there, it still shows the Buddha putting the question aside, due to its lack of benefit for the ending of Dukkha.
one layer of its context.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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