Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

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Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby dhamma_newb » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:42 am

I read this article and was interested to know what others here have to think about it. I am still learning so I thought hearing from people with more experience than me would help me to clarify exactly what a Sotāpanna is. Do you agree or disagree with his views and why? Thank you.

Metta,
Don
The watched mind brings happiness.
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:17 am

Greetings Don,

dhamma_newb wrote:I read this article and was interested to know what others here have to think about it.

I like it.

dhamma_newb wrote:Do you agree or disagree with his views and why?

Agree, because of the correlation to what is found in the Sutta Pitaka. I also agree with the stated dangers of putting stream-entry on a pedestal, outside of reach.

As for the WBO situational-context, that's not really my business.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby dhamma_newb » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:42 am

Thanks for your input Retro. I think his explanations are very clear and helpful for beginners like me.

Metta,
Don
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby Zom » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:24 am

I think the author of this text made an omission concerning the views (ditthi) of stream-enterer. He focuses too much on morality/virtue, forgetting though, that high standards of morality can be seen among atheists, christians, muslims, hinduists, so on. What makes one a stream-enterer is complete Right Views factor, not morality itself. This is not accidental that in the suttas we see so much information about all types of Wrong Views. This is very important, really important.
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby dhamma_newb » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:58 pm

Zom wrote:I think the author of this text made an omission concerning the views (ditthi) of stream-enterer. He focuses too much on morality/virtue, forgetting though, that high standards of morality can be seen among atheists, christians, muslims, hinduists, so on. What makes one a stream-enterer is complete Right Views factor, not morality itself. This is not accidental that in the suttas we see so much information about all types of Wrong Views. This is very important, really important.


Nice points Zom. They make total sense. Thanks for sharing. :)
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:43 pm

Zom wrote:What makes one a stream-enterer is complete Right Views factor, not morality itself. This is not accidental that in the suttas we see so much information about all types of Wrong Views. This is very important, really important.


Indeed, this seems to be the only way in which "independent of others with regard to the Teacher's message" can occur.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby dhamma_newb » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:44 pm

daverupa wrote:Indeed, this seems to be the only way in which "independent of others with regard to the Teacher's message" can occur.


Hi daverupa. Can you please explain what that means? Thanks!

Metta,
Don
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:14 pm

Stream-entrants have a number of qualities, and this one in particular is found in various stock phrases, for example:

Udana 5.3 wrote:Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, he rose up from his seat and went to the Blessed One.


It's always seemed to me that the only way in which this independence could obtain is if Right View obtained as well.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby dhamma_newb » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:04 am

Zom wrote:I think the author of this text made an omission concerning the views (ditthi) of stream-enterer. He focuses too much on morality/virtue, forgetting though, that high standards of morality can be seen among atheists, christians, muslims, hinduists, so on. What makes one a stream-enterer is complete Right Views factor, not morality itself. This is not accidental that in the suttas we see so much information about all types of Wrong Views. This is very important, really important.


Now that I've reread the article I see that Bodhiketu does mention having Right View as a requirement of stream entry:

While it is important not to minimise the significance of Stream Entry, or the efforts
required to reach it, it seems to me to be crucial to understand that Stream Entry is more
concerned with vision and understanding in the sense of seeing through false views and false
approaches rather than with actual ethical purity, which is what one aspires to develop as one
weakens and then eradicates craving and hatred and, in this way, finally establishes freedom
(from attachment) and compassion.
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman
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Re: Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu

Postby khaaan » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:24 pm

The linked article says that, "because Non-Returners are not subject to any hindrances, the Eight Jhānas are readily accessible to them". But that's one stage too early. The orthodox account is: "sloth and torpor and restlessness are eradicated on the path of Arahatship". (Nyanaponika Thera. The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html)
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