Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

[vidar]

wow... it was great reading all these responses. i just came back from my first course two days ago and

have to admit that Goenka's chanting (his english instruction as well) was the absolute number one reason that i feel as though i missed out on vipassana completely and might have wasted 10 days of my time... it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.

I am so very relieved to hear this as my experience and feelings were exactly the same,
Didn't know my earlobes could fit into my ears and help block out sound until I did this course.

Definitely is your experience, for me was completely different. And if in the course you only continued reacting with disliking or aversion towards chanting or anything else, then you don't understand nothing about what the practice really is.

[Brizzy]

Definitely is your experience, for me was completely different. And if in the course you only continued reacting with disliking or aversion towards chanting or anything else, then you don't understand nothing about what the practice really is.

It is quite possible to have a preference for silence rather than being chanted at in Hindi (a language I have absolutely no knowledge of) or Pali (without translation) without being accused of aversion or a lack of understanding. I am afraid to say that the idea of 'magical words' or should I say 'creating good vibrations' does not really sit well with me. The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses. The Buddha never made such claims, the Buddha seemed to generate goodness through his teachings which were understood by others and not through special chanting or languages that were unintelligible to his audience. I can deal with a small amount of chanting in pali (with English translation) morning & night but beyond that it begins to strike me as a rather fruitless exercise. Being heavily involved with Tibetan Buddhism in my early years, I have seen the utter ludicrousness of large groups of westerners chanting & being chanted at, in a language totally alien to them and totally believing that this is a mystical language bringing its blessings. If it was a sutta being chanted in English THEN I could believe its effects, not through the language but through its MEANING.

Metta

[David2]

If it was a sutta being chanted in English THEN I could believe its effects, not through the language but through its MEANING.

Of course old students can study what the chanting means, so they will also benefit of the meaning of the chanting in their following courses.

The advantage of chanting not in English but in Pali and Hindi is obviously that the meaning of the suttas and the traditional chanting does not change (through translation).

[vidar]

It is quite possible to have a preference for silence rather than being chanted at in Hindi (a language I have absolutely no knowledge of) or Pali (without translation)...

The long chant is only in the morning not all day. If anyone has a “preference for silence” he/she can meditate in the pagoda cells or in his/her room during the day.

...without being accused of aversion or a lack of understanding

Continuing reacting with aversion towards chanting or anything else instead of try to maintain equanimity shows a lack of understanding of the technique and the instructions given in the discourses.

I am afraid to say that the idea of 'magical words' or should I say 'creating good vibrations' does not really sit well with me

Goenkaji never said that his words are "magical".

The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses.

Really? The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used "often" in the discourses? I don't remember, maybe I missed that part.

The Buddha never made such claims, the Buddha seemed to generate goodness through his teachings which were understood by others and not through special chanting or languages that were unintelligible to his audience

The discourses with the Dhamma teachings and the meditation instructions are given in a language intelligible to the audience not in pali or hindi. And by the way you hardly are an authority in what the Buddha taught or not.

Being heavily involved with Tibetan Buddhism in my early years, I have seen the utter ludicrousness of large groups of westerners chanting & being chanted at, in a language totally alien to them and totally believing that this is a mystical language bringing its blessings.

There is nothing mystical in Goenkaji chants and certainly he never said that the chanting will help you to become liberated. Liberation comes only with your personal effort, as he says:

“Dhamma is Dhamma only if it makes us self-reliant. So it is the duty of every Vipassana teacher to teach people to become self-reliant. "Attā hi attano nātho" You are your own master and no one else. "Attā hi attano gati" You make your own future, both wholesome and unwholesome and also the state of full liberation beyond all conditioned states. If you understand this properly, no teacher will be able to harm you in any way. Then if any teacher says, "Sit in front of me for one hour, I will give mettā and suck out all your sins," you will get up and walk away because you don't want this kind of mettā.”

[Cittasanto]

Definitely is your experience, for me was completely different. And if in the course you only continued reacting with disliking or aversion towards chanting or anything else, then you don't understand nothing about what the practice really is.

sometimes being with the aversion is the practice, and it can be very useful, there is Dukkha and it is to be apprehended, so maybe your understanding is at fault, not that of others.

[vidar]

Definitely is your experience, for me was completely different. And if in the course you only continued reacting with disliking or aversion towards chanting or anything else, then you don't understand nothing about what the practice really is.

sometimes being with the aversion is the practice, and it can be very useful, there is Dukkha and it is to be apprehended

So you're saying that one must continuing reacting with aversion?

so maybe your understanding is at fault, not that of others.

Maybe, although I doubt of the understanding of somebody who says "Didn't know my earlobes could fit into my ears and help block out sound until I did this course."

[Cittasanto]

Definitely is your experience, for me was completely different. And if in the course you only continued reacting with disliking or aversion towards chanting or anything else, then you don't understand nothing about what the practice really is.

sometimes being with the aversion is the practice, and it can be very useful, there is Dukkha and it is to be apprehended

So you're saying that one must continuing reacting with aversion?

so maybe your understanding is at fault, not that of others.

Maybe, although I doubt of the understanding of somebody who says "Didn't know my earlobes could fit into my ears and help block out sound until I did this course."

one can have aversion for along time, so long as there is dosa there is the possibility of aversion at some level if something for whatever reason provides a foothold for it!
and do note they did not say they ran out of the room screaming, or anything of the sort, shows some patient endurance, the foremost austerity, and will come in useful when it is needed. this is a gradual path and knowing Dukkha is just as much part of it as any other, not that there aren't other things to do in that regard.
however, did you ever think that they were joking about the ear thing?

[Goofaholix]

At the root of the aversion to the chanting is the belief that "this should not be happening", if one didn't have this belief then the aversion wouldn't grow. For example a large flock of birds could be making just as much noise as the chanting but nobody would create as much aversion to that because everybody knows this is natural and beyond our control.

Goenka retreats are like the McDonalds of the retreat world, you can attend a retreat anywhere in the world and know exactly what you are going to get, unlike McDonalds though where you can take the pickles out you can't do this with a Goenka retreat. So if you can't cope with the chanting don't sign up for another retreat.

If you do sign up for a retreat then you know you are going to be meditating at times when the circumstances are totally quiet and other times when it's noisy, the mind settles much more easily when it's quiet but meditating when it's noisy builds strength of mind and an ability to meditate under a variety of circumstances. The ability to meditate under a variety of circumstances is a good skill to have, if you have to wait until conditions are perfect your meditation practise will be much poorer, if you have to learn this at home it will be harder than if you learned it on retreat.

I've done a lot of retreats in SE Asia and in many centres there are loudspeakers, music, dogs, roosters, spitting monks, and all manner of noise throughout the day, I can assure you Goenkas chanting is quite sublime by comparison.

[cooran]

with metta
Chris

[vidar]

one can have aversion for along time, so long as there is dosa there is the possibility of aversion at some level if something for whatever reason provides a foothold for it!

you're right, but I never said that one must not feel aversion, what I said was that if aversion or craving arises due to unpleasant or pleasant sensations/sounds one must be aware and try to maintain equanimity.

and do note they did not say they ran out of the room screaming, or anything of the sort, shows some patient endurance, the foremost austerity, and will come in useful when it is needed. this is a gradual path and knowing Dukkha is just as much part of it as any other, not that there aren't other things to do in that regard.
however, did you ever think that they were joking about the ear thing

Yes I know it was a joke (a bad one), but if they say that the aversion towards chanting caused that they missed out on vipassana and "wasted 10 days of they time",I suppose they didn't understand the instructions correctly.

[vidar]

Goenka retreats are like the McDonalds of the retreat world, you can attend a retreat anywhere in the world and know exactly what you are going to get, unlike McDonalds though where you can take the pickles out you can't do this with a Goenka retreat. So if you can't cope with the chanting don't sign up for another retreat.

Well said Goofaholix

[Cittasanto]

one can have aversion for along time, so long as there is dosa there is the possibility of aversion at some level if something for whatever reason provides a foothold for it!

you're right, but I never said that one must not feel aversion, what I said was that if aversion or craving arises due to unpleasant or pleasant sensations/sounds one must be aware and try to maintain equanimity.

Why must they? there is more than equanimity in the practice, I believe they done well getting through the parts they didn't like, and managing the aversion the best they could and then going back for more! this is their first one or two goes at intensive retreat. I know people who lasted only a few days and left.

and do note they did not say they ran out of the room screaming, or anything of the sort, shows some patient endurance, the foremost austerity, and will come in useful when it is needed. this is a gradual path and knowing Dukkha is just as much part of it as any other, not that there aren't other things to do in that regard.
however, did you ever think that they were joking about the ear thing

Yes I know it was a joke (a bad one), but if they say that the aversion towards chanting caused that they missed out on vipassana and "wasted 10 days of they time",I suppose they didn't understand the instructions correctly.

Well I though it funny, just thinking of a person in front of me tucking their ears inside out is a funny thought!
but they may of needed something else to help them, not everyone needs group instruction and maybe some one on one assistance may of been better?

I was in a 2week full group practice period of a three month retreat having panic attacks and had to be offered permission to not attend afternoon sits, (heaven forbid I requested to attend a 10day+ retreat after that!) so I didn't get any benefit out of that in the same way some may expect or believe a retreat experience should yield fruit, but it was still beneficial, maybe time and perspective are needed to see it, or not? but no need to say they didn't understand, maybe their experiance wasn't the norm, but maybe they need assistance seeing the benefit of it.

[Brizzy]

If it was a sutta being chanted in English THEN I could believe its effects, not through the language but through its MEANING.

Of course old students can study what the chanting means, so they will also benefit of the meaning of the chanting in their following courses.

The advantage of chanting not in English but in Pali and Hindi is obviously that the meaning of the suttas and the traditional chanting does not change (through translation).

I am sorry but at my time of life learning the dhamma is enough without having to learn another language. Also how can one actually benefit from hearing the original pali without somehow translating it?

Metta

[Brizzy]

It is quite possible to have a preference for silence rather than being chanted at in Hindi (a language I have absolutely no knowledge of) or Pali (without translation)...

The long chant is only in the morning not all day. If anyone has a “preference for silence” he/she can meditate in the pagoda cells or in his/her room during the day.

...without being accused of aversion or a lack of understanding

Continuing reacting with aversion towards chanting or anything else instead of try to maintain equanimity shows a lack of understanding of the technique and the instructions given in the discourses.

I am afraid to say that the idea of 'magical words' or should I say 'creating good vibrations' does not really sit well with me

Goenkaji never said that his words are "magical".

The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses.

Really? The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used "often" in the discourses? I don't remember, maybe I missed that part.

The Buddha never made such claims, the Buddha seemed to generate goodness through his teachings which were understood by others and not through special chanting or languages that were unintelligible to his audience

The discourses with the Dhamma teachings and the meditation instructions are given in a language intelligible to the audience not in pali or hindi. And by the way you hardly are an authority in what the Buddha taught or not.

Being heavily involved with Tibetan Buddhism in my early years, I have seen the utter ludicrousness of large groups of westerners chanting & being chanted at, in a language totally alien to them and totally believing that this is a mystical language bringing its blessings.

There is nothing mystical in Goenkaji chants and certainly he never said that the chanting will help you to become liberated. Liberation comes only with your personal effort, as he says:

“Dhamma is Dhamma only if it makes us self-reliant. So it is the duty of every Vipassana teacher to teach people to become self-reliant. "Attā hi attano nātho" You are your own master and no one else. "Attā hi attano gati" You make your own future, both wholesome and unwholesome and also the state of full liberation beyond all conditioned states. If you understand this properly, no teacher will be able to harm you in any way. Then if any teacher says, "Sit in front of me for one hour, I will give mettā and suck out all your sins," you will get up and walk away because you don't want this kind of mettā.”

Maybe in your experience one can escape the chanting, bit in mine it is piped through the buildings.
It is a common practice for people to be accused of lack of understanding or having aversion, when those same people raise concern or issue with others religious beliefs. It would be better if those concerns were addressed or debated rather than cast aspersions.
If you cannot remember that Mr Goenka talks about creating good vibrations through chanting and that it is his role as a teacher to do this and we should not worry our heads about it, then you cannot remember you did indeed miss that part.
As for being an authority on what the Buddha did or did not teach, you may be right. I only have the suttas, teachers and my own discernment to guide me. If I get it wrong it is my fault.

Metta

[Brizzy]

Goenka retreats are like the McDonalds of the retreat world, you can attend a retreat anywhere in the world and know exactly what you are going to get, unlike McDonalds though where you can take the pickles out you can't do this with a Goenka retreat. So if you can't cope with the chanting don't sign up for another retreat.

Well said Goofaholix

I'll have mine to go.

Metta

[BuddhaSoup]

The whole idea of these lengthy Goenka retreats is interesting. I know that many have benefited greatly from completing the retreats, and others have had different experiences.

Having not attended one, I can't really have an opinion. A Thai monk with whom I was meditating did suggest that the Goenka path was not what he, the Bhikkhu, considered a proper practice of meditation as he saw it being taught within Theravada practice. I believe he saw these Goenka retreats as being akin to a marathon that people enjoyed completing for the sake of the experience. I know that he very much did not consider them to be part of the Dhamma practice that he was teaching.

Another of my teachers has commented that in Thailand, chanting is popular with the public, and that the public will attend the Wat for an evening of chanting, but that to get them to attend an evening of sitting meditation is much more difficult. Perhaps Goenka adds the Pali and Hindi chanting as a way to romanticize or energize the experience.

The hard part of practice is the meditation. It is also the beautiful part, the calming part, the insightful part.

I'd love to run a 26.4 K marathon just to say that I did it. But at the end of the day, if 20 minutes of walking meditation allows me to be just a little kinder, a little more compassionate that day, then the 20 minutes works for me.

Again, what works for others is always interesting to hear, and that's why I'm glad for this forum.

[Goofaholix]

The whole idea of these lengthy Goenka retreats is interesting. I know that many have benefited greatly from completing the retreats, and others have had different experiences.

Lengthy? 10 days is hardly lengthy when you consider the task being undertaken is awakening.

Perhaps Goenka adds the Pali and Hindi chanting as a way to romanticize or energize the experience.

That's the only conclusion i can draw, it seems to not fit with the importance he places on what he is teaching being non-sectarian/religious.

[Ben]

The whole idea of these lengthy Goenka retreats is interesting. I know that many have benefited greatly from completing the retreats, and others have had different experiences.

Having not attended one, I can't really have an opinion. A Thai monk with whom I was meditating did suggest that the Goenka path was not what he, the Bhikkhu, considered a proper practice of meditation as he saw it being taught within Theravada practice. I believe he saw these Goenka retreats as being akin to a marathon that people enjoyed completing for the sake of the experience. I know that he very much did not consider them to be part of the Dhamma practice that he was teaching.

I would say that your Venerable friend may be mistaken with his impressions of a ten-day course in the Goenka tradition. The real marathon is maintaining practice in daily life. Certainly some people go for "the experience", but for others it is the establishment of their practice and subsequent retreats are a merely an opportunity to practice deeply for a period of time. Also, you will find that within Myanmar what is taught by SN Goenka at his centres is considered mainstream Theravada.

Another of my teachers has commented that in Thailand, chanting is popular with the public, and that the public will attend the Wat for an evening of chanting, but that to get them to attend an evening of sitting meditation is much more difficult. Perhaps Goenka adds the Pali and Hindi chanting as a way to romanticize or energize the experience.

Despite how it has been characterised in this thread by those who have a negativity in relation to SN Goenka, there is little chanting in a ten-day course. As others have noted if one were to spend any time near a monastery in Myanmar they would find that the chanting and instruction in Pali and Burmese goes on almost continuously from 3.30am to 11pm at night.
Durng one of SN Goenka's ten-day courses: apart from about one hour in the morning, the remainder of the chanting is interspersed during the day and would not total more than half an hour in total (1.5 hours per day). The reason why chanting is there is partly traditional but also to help create a meditative ambiance.

The hard part of practice is the meditation. It is also the beautiful part, the calming part, the insightful part.

I agree.


kind regards,

Ben

[Brizzy]

The whole idea of these lengthy Goenka retreats is interesting. I know that many have benefited greatly from completing the retreats, and others have had different experiences.

Having not attended one, I can't really have an opinion. A Thai monk with whom I was meditating did suggest that the Goenka path was not what he, the Bhikkhu, considered a proper practice of meditation as he saw it being taught within Theravada practice. I believe he saw these Goenka retreats as being akin to a marathon that people enjoyed completing for the sake of the experience. I know that he very much did not consider them to be part of the Dhamma practice that he was teaching.

Another of my teachers has commented that in Thailand, chanting is popular with the public, and that the public will attend the Wat for an evening of chanting, but that to get them to attend an evening of sitting meditation is much more difficult. Perhaps Goenka adds the Pali and Hindi chanting as a way to romanticize or energize the experience.

The hard part of practice is the meditation. It is also the beautiful part, the calming part, the insightful part.

I'd love to run a 26.4 K marathon just to say that I did it. But at the end of the day, if 20 minutes of walking meditation allows me to be just a little kinder, a little more compassionate that day, then the 20 minutes works for me.

Again, what works for others is always interesting to hear, and that's why I'm glad for this forum.

Now thats not fair!

There should be rules about posting a polite, gentle and balanced posting like yours immediately after my little rants.

It makes me look bad

Metta

[Mr Man]

There is a clip of Goenka chanting here (I haven't embeded the clip because I think it possibly shouldn't be on youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpklk6FuGsM
Ben what is he chanting here?
He has a fairly traditional rythem at times but it is also rather idiosyncratic. I am actually rather a fan of chanting .