If my memory serves me he says this once only on one of the 10 day course teaching tapes.tiltbillings wrote:And your source for this claim?Brizzy wrote: The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses.
Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
- Goofaholix
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- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Which is a great deal different from "is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses".Goofaholix wrote:If my memory serves me he says this once only on one of the 10 day course teaching tapes.tiltbillings wrote:And your source for this claim?Brizzy wrote: The phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used often by Mr Goenka in the discourses.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Tilt, your comments are fair ones. I erred perhaps in stating that I didn't have an opinion, but proceeded to weigh in a bit on the subject. I can be guilty of this if only to encourage some reaction or response that might correct me or educate me further. I truly do not have a negative view of Goenka, again, as I have not experienced one of his programs. Personally, I'm not keen to try one, and perhaps that sentiment leaked out in my text...While you may not have an opinion, that does not stop you from voicing an opinion of an unnamed monk about whom we know know nothing. The unnamed, unknown monk's opinion seems to be a fairly shallow appraisal of what Goenka-ji is offering us.
Of course, I won't name the monk that made the statement re Goenka practice, but I did add this to my text as it was a correct recollection of his statement. In some cases, for privacy we can't cite the author of a statement, and I realize that these kinds of statements lack credibility ( ie an unnamed Pentagon source claims there will be no invasion of Iraq by US forces...) and I'll endeavor not to so this again.
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Fair enough Cittasanto, and thanks for sharing your experience.Cittasanto wrote:Why must they? there is more than equanimity in the practice, I believe they done well getting through the parts they didn't like, and managing the aversion the best they could and then going back for more! this is their first one or two goes at intensive retreat. I know people who lasted only a few days and left.
Well I though it funny, just thinking of a person in front of me tucking their ears inside out is a funny thought!
but they may of needed something else to help them, not everyone needs group instruction and maybe some one on one assistance may of been better?
I was in a 2week full group practice period of a three month retreat having panic attacks and had to be offered permission to not attend afternoon sits, (heaven forbid I requested to attend a 10day+ retreat after that!) so I didn't get any benefit out of that in the same way some may expect or believe a retreat experience should yield fruit, but it was still beneficial, maybe time and perspective are needed to see it, or not? but no need to say they didn't understand, maybe their experiance wasn't the norm, but maybe they need assistance seeing the benefit of it.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)
By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Hi Mr Man,
I'm pretty sure its a Pali Sutta chant as opposed to one of his devotional dohas (in Hindi). Unfortunately I am at a remote location atm where my availability to the internet is via cell-phone network (is extremely slow and cost-prohibitive to download or stream video or music) or via a computer without a sound care connected via satelite.
There is a list of the different chants on each day and their translations which I can provide later - when I dig them out.
kind regards,
Ben
You are right,it is idiosyncratic. If you listen to U Ba Khin chanting the Tikapatthana - its quite different. And they are both different to traditional Burmese chanting which is again different to Thai chanting.Mr Man wrote:There is a clip of Goenka chanting here (I haven't embeded the clip because I think it possibly shouldn't be on youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpklk6FuGsM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ben what is he chanting here?
He has a fairly traditional rythem at times but it is also rather idiosyncratic. I am actually rather a fan of chanting .
I'm pretty sure its a Pali Sutta chant as opposed to one of his devotional dohas (in Hindi). Unfortunately I am at a remote location atm where my availability to the internet is via cell-phone network (is extremely slow and cost-prohibitive to download or stream video or music) or via a computer without a sound care connected via satelite.
There is a list of the different chants on each day and their translations which I can provide later - when I dig them out.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Having attended numerous 10 day, 3 day and 1 day courses that is my recollection. If I am wrong then I am mistaken not being untruthful.vidar wrote:You said that the phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used "often" in the discourses by Goenkaji, and that simply is not true.
Forgetting about personalities and getting to my point.......Do you think that 'creating good vibrations' by chanting in an ancient language is part of the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha in the suttas/vinaya?
Remember, I am not talking about a Dhamma teaching chanted in a language that both the speaker & the hearer can understand, which I personally feel has great efficacy.
Metta
Ignorance is an intentional act.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
First of all, given your dimissive approach towards Goenka-ji's methodology here, you need to do a great deal better than "my recollection." Secondly, paritta chanting, whatever one might think of it, is a highly ingrained part of the Theravadin tradition. Since you seem to find this objectionable, the question for you is does Goemka-ji make any claims, that you can actually show, about the chanting's efficacy beyond causing the vague "good vibrations?"Brizzy wrote:Having attended numerous 10 day, 3 day and 1 day courses that is my recollection. If I am wrong then I am mistaken not being untruthful.vidar wrote:You said that the phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used "often" in the discourses by Goenkaji, and that simply is not true.
Forgetting about personalities and getting to my point.......Do you think that 'creating good vibrations' by chanting in an ancient language is part of the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha in the suttas/vinaya?
Remember, I am not talking about a Dhamma teaching chanted in a language that both the speaker & the hearer can understand, which I personally feel has great efficacy.
Metta
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Quite a long post to actually not answer the question. Nice use of the word 'vague' though, to undermine the implications of 'good vibrations'.tiltbillings wrote:First of all, given your dimissive approach towards Goenka-ji's methodology here, you need to do a great deal better than "my recollection." Secondly, paritta chanting, whatever one might think of it, is a highly ingrained part of the Theravadin tradition. Since you seem to find this objectionable, the question for you is does Goemka-ji make any claims, that you can actually show, about the chanting's efficacy beyond causing the vague "good vibrations?"Brizzy wrote:Having attended numerous 10 day, 3 day and 1 day courses that is my recollection. If I am wrong then I am mistaken not being untruthful.vidar wrote:You said that the phrase 'creating good vibrations' is used "often" in the discourses by Goenkaji, and that simply is not true.
Forgetting about personalities and getting to my point.......Do you think that 'creating good vibrations' by chanting in an ancient language is part of the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha in the suttas/vinaya?
Remember, I am not talking about a Dhamma teaching chanted in a language that both the speaker & the hearer can understand, which I personally feel has great efficacy.
Metta
BTW I still stand by 'my recollection' and since my honesty has been questioned (obviously not by you), I will over the next few days undertake the task of finding supporting evidence.
As for paritta chanting, I have no objection if the aim is imparting a teaching and not just ritualistic noises.
Is it possible for you to tell me what Dhammic process is at work when chanting in an alien language is listened to?
I heard different answers from the Tibetan tradition and was wondering if you had any views on the subject.
Ignorance is an intentional act.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
The only thing that has not been answered is the challenge to your claim which you can only appeal to your unsupported "recollection," which is not supported by others who have done Goenka retreats.Brizzy wrote:Quite a long post to actually not answer the question.
Thge problem is that is the "good vibrations" claim on your part has no support, others have stated it is a singular usage which hardly renders it the significance you are trying to lay on it.Nice use of the word 'vague' though, to undermine the implications of 'good vibrations'.
Which is what you should have done in the first place.BTW I still stand by 'my recollection' and since my honesty has been questioned (obviously not by you), I will over the next few days undertake the task of finding supporting evidence.
That is an ugly dismissal of something that is held in high regard within the Theravada world.As for paritta chanting, I have no objection if the aim is imparting a teaching and not just ritualistic noises.
It depends upon the context.Is it possible for you to tell me what Dhammic process is at work when chanting in an alien language is listened to?
I heard different answers from the Tibetan tradition and was wondering if you had any views on the subject.
If you do not like it, then do not go to his retreats. If you are at one of his retreats and there is chanting and you feel aversion, then pay attention to the aversion, but a bottom line question is here what is your point in attacking Goenka's chanting during his retreats?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Several post dealing with the efficacy of chanting have been moved here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 32#p170879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 32#p170879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
And here it is:Ben wrote:Hi Mr Man,
...Mr Man wrote:There is a clip of Goenka chanting here (I haven't embeded the clip because I think it possibly shouldn't be on youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpklk6FuGsM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ben what is he chanting here?
He has a fairly traditional rythem at times but it is also rather idiosyncratic. I am actually rather a fan of chanting .
There is a list of the different chants on each day and their translations which I can provide later - when I dig them out.
kind regards,
Ben
- Day 1: Atanatiyasuttam
Day 2: Ratanasuttam
Day 3: Karaniyamettasuttam
Day 4: Jayamangala Attagatha
Day 5: Patthana
Day 6: Paticca Samuppada & Udana Gatha
Day 7: Bojjhanga Paritta
Day 8: Mettanisamsa
Day 9: Mengalasuttam
Day 10: Metta Bhavana
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Then I suppose you can quote the parts in which the phrase 'creating good vibrations' is "often" used by Goenkaji in the 10 day courses.Brizzy wrote:Having attended numerous 10 day, 3 day and 1 day courses that is my recollection.
If you say soIf I am wrong then I am mistaken not being untruthful.
Supporting evidence from the discourses of the 10 day courses with the phrase "creating good vibrations" often used, I hope.I will over the next few days undertake the task of finding supporting evidence.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)
By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
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- Contact:
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
just to interject, hopefully for everyones benefit, there is a difference between being mistaken and being untruthful (as I believe the initial comment said) being mistaken is not a deliberate thing, it can be based on facts which maybe misinterpreted or misinformation due to some reason, being untruthful is deliberately misleading, or distorting the facts.
it certainly isn't a case of if someone says so.
it certainly isn't a case of if someone says so.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Thanks Ben.Ben wrote:Ben wrote:Hi Mr Man,
]
And here it is:
- Day 1: Atanatiyasuttam
Day 2: Ratanasuttam
Day 3: Karaniyamettasuttam
Day 4: Jayamangala Attagatha
Day 5: Patthana
Day 6: Paticca Samuppada & Udana Gatha
Day 7: Bojjhanga Paritta
Day 8: Mettanisamsa
Day 9: Mengalasuttam
Day 10: Metta Bhavana
PS I had seen this on page one of this thread
Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting
Hint:
Everybody who is interested in Goenkajis chanting should consider getting a copy of this book:
The Gem Set in Gold
http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/prod ... sku=771501" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Everybody who is interested in Goenkajis chanting should consider getting a copy of this book:
The Gem Set in Gold
http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/prod ... sku=771501" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;