Bowing to lay teachers

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Goofaholix
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:Where I have seen that is in Myanmar with a room of 100+ Burmese people who were doing the five-point bow. In India and Aus/NZ his students just bow from sitting position which ever sitting posture they're in.
I've also seen Burmese people bowing to a picture of Sayagi U Ba Khin at a shrine at IMC Yangon. Sayagi's teacher was Saya (U Po) Thet. And I imagine that his Burmese students bowed to him. But apparently he gave his Dhamma talks from behind a screen.
kind regards,
It seems fitting in an asian context with teachers of the stature of U Ba Khin and Goenka.

I was thinking though of westerners bowing to fellow westerner IMS type teachers, which seems unlikely and not fitting with our culture.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).

If you understand that your bowing is something done by you to show how much you respect the Triple Gem, and not how much you respect whoever is sitting in front of you, it becomes easy to bow, even to a monk or lay person who is weak in virtue, and far from the Noble Path.

It doesn't matter if the pile of bricks looking like a stūpa actually contains relics or not. Why should you allow that to affect your reverence for the Triple Gem? Nor does it matter if the person, photo, or statue you're bowing too is a Noble One or not. If your mind is purified by focusing on the qualities of the Triple Gem, that is what is important.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

:goodpost:

Thanks, as always.

:candle: :candle: :candle:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by cooran »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).

If you understand that your bowing is something done by you to show how much you respect the Triple Gem, and not how much you respect whoever is sitting in front of you, it becomes easy to bow, even to a monk or lay person who is weak in virtue, and far from the Noble Path.

It doesn't matter if the pile of bricks looking like a stūpa actually contains relics or not. Why should you allow that to affect your reverence for the Triple Gem? Nor does it matter if the person, photo, or statue you're bowing too is a Noble One or not. If your mind is purified by focusing on the qualities of the Triple Gem, that is what is important.

So glad you are here, Bhante.

with metta and respect,
Chris
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Ben
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Ben »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).

If you understand that your bowing is something done by you to show how much you respect the Triple Gem, and not how much you respect whoever is sitting in front of you, it becomes easy to bow, even to a monk or lay person who is weak in virtue, and far from the Noble Path.

It doesn't matter if the pile of bricks looking like a stūpa actually contains relics or not. Why should you allow that to affect your reverence for the Triple Gem? Nor does it matter if the person, photo, or statue you're bowing too is a Noble One or not. If your mind is purified by focusing on the qualities of the Triple Gem, that is what is important.
Well said, Bhante!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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SDC
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by SDC »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).

If you understand that your bowing is something done by you to show how much you respect the Triple Gem, and not how much you respect whoever is sitting in front of you, it becomes easy to bow, even to a monk or lay person who is weak in virtue, and far from the Noble Path.

It doesn't matter if the pile of bricks looking like a stūpa actually contains relics or not. Why should you allow that to affect your reverence for the Triple Gem? Nor does it matter if the person, photo, or statue you're bowing too is a Noble One or not. If your mind is purified by focusing on the qualities of the Triple Gem, that is what is important.
Thanks for this, Bhante.

Question is - do most people even know this to be the case?

I would suspect that most believe there is more to a bow than respect for the Triple Gem. I think it comes down to why the person is choosing to bow, not who or what they are bowing to. If the respect and reverence is there then the person knows why they are choosing to bow. I suppose there are many cases where a bow is performed out of feelings of obligation and/or social pressure (a need to look like you "know what's up" or that you "know how to act"). Perhaps those that succumb to bowing for these reasons will eventually feel a true need to do so.

Just my .02 :smile:
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

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"Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).
"
Ben,
Do Goenka's students bow three times to him? In a previous post you asserted that his student's bow to him to express gratitude and respect....it seemed like you were saying that it was out of respect for him although you did not say that explicitly. I'm just wondering if actually different people have different reasons for bowing and on this forum most people who post are wanting to tell the appropriate reasons for bowing.....which is fine but in my view it does not really express the way things really are in that my view is that some people bow for inappropriate reasons. (Note: "appropriate" and "inappropriate" are just figures of speach here and might be replaced with "beneficial" and "non-beneficial" or probably other descriptors.)
chownah
P.S......oooops!!.....just saw the previous post.....I guess I'm being redundant.....
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Ben
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Ben »

Hi Chownah,

If you surveyed SN Goenka's students, you'll find a range of responses. From "I'm bowing because everyone else is doing it" right through to bowing to honor the triple gem. A lot of people bow out of respect, gratitude, personal reverence, and also because they are bowing to the Dhamma embodied in SN Goenka and/or the tradition/lineage.
What I have observed is that his western students bow once. In Myanmar the Burmese bow three times and what I have seen in India is that most of his Indian students bow once and some when they bow once move their hands (in Anjali) to the ground to the forehead three times.

Chownah, you might find the following interesting:
Question: Goenkaji, every time assistant teachers enter and leave the meditation hall, Dhamma servers bow down. The students are watching this, and when they offer Dhamma service they do the same thing. It has become almost a ritual. Could you please advise on this?

Goenkaji: In pure Dhamma no ritual at all should be allowed. Dhamma and ritual cannot co-exist. I find nothing wrong in somebody's paying respect to an assistant teacher, provided this person is paying respect to Dhamma. An assistant teacher, or whoever sits on the Dhamma seat-assistant or senior assistant or deputy or Teacher, anybody-is representing the Buddha, the teachings of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the entire lineage of the Teachers of Vipassana. He or she lives a life of Dhamma and is serving people in Dhamma. One develops a feeling of devotion, of gratitude towards this person.
Bowing down is a meritorious deed. Actually one is bowing down to Dhamma, paying respect to Dhamma. But when this becomes merely a formal rite or ritual, it goes totally against Dhamma. If some- one bows out of respect and others feel, "If I do not bow then people will consider me a very discourteous person, so I must also bow," again, there is no Dhamma. To act with Dhamma is always to have a pure volition in the mind. Otherwise it is just a mechanical exercise: you bow down and give good exercise to your back! If these back exercises are to be done, better do them in your own room. If somebody does not bow because at that particular moment, he or she has not developed the volition of devotion towards Dhamma, I feel happy: "Very good." Bowing must be with this volition of paying respect to Dhamma, not to the individual.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Cittasanto
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Cittasanto »

Here are a couple of articles By Piya Tan which maybe of help.
090916Addressateacher.pdf
How To Address A Teacher
(46.62 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
090211Bowing.piyapdf.pdf
Bowing
(56.27 KiB) Downloaded 105 times
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Dan74
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Dan74 »

Bowing and prostrating comes hard to most people here I think.

I guess Aussies tend to be more irreverent and irreligious than the Yanks. I recall the time when my future friend Nadi did a full prostration to Ajahn Thanasanti (a forest nun) after we had dropped her off at the place she was staying. That was quite confronting and I was not sure what to do. I was certainly very impressed both by the Ajahn's talk and in general but prostrating??

Now I think that bowing and prostrating can be very good. Bow to the Dhamma, bow to the Buddha that is immanent in us all, bow, simply bow.
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Whether bowing to a monk, a lay Dhamma teacher, or a stūpa, why do you bow three times? It is because you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (those Noble Ones who have realised nibbāna).

If you understand that your bowing is something done by you to show how much you respect the Triple Gem, and not how much you respect whoever is sitting in front of you, it becomes easy to bow, even to a monk or lay person who is weak in virtue, and far from the Noble Path.

It doesn't matter if the pile of bricks looking like a stūpa actually contains relics or not. Why should you allow that to affect your reverence for the Triple Gem? Nor does it matter if the person, photo, or statue you're bowing too is a Noble One or not. If your mind is purified by focusing on the qualities of the Triple Gem, that is what is important.
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Very well explanation.
My suggestion: To bow down to lay teachers, lay teachers should be older than disciples.
If a man does evil, he should not do it again and again; he should not take delight in it; the accumulation of evil leads to suffering. (Dhammapada 117)

If a man does what is good, he should do it again and again; he should take delight in it; the accumulation of good leads to happiness. (Dhammapada 118)
Bankei
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Bankei »

What about monks bowing to laypeople. Does it happen?

bankei
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by pilgrim »

Bankei wrote:What about monks bowing to laypeople. Does it happen?

bankei
No...
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Cittasanto
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by Cittasanto »

monks can not bow to lay people or junior monks.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Bowing to lay teachers

Post by plwk »

...lay teachers should be older than disciples.
'Younger', 'Older'... this & this
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