Misquote of the Buddha?

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clw_uk
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Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby clw_uk » Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 pm

Greetings


Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense


This is quite a popular "quote" that i have seen attributed to our teacher but i havent come accross the actual passage itself, is it a slight alteration of the kalama sutta teaching?


Metta
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 07, 2009 10:49 pm

Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:is it a slight alteration of the kalama sutta teaching?

Yes - a slight alteration that makes a significant difference to the meaning.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby clw_uk » Thu May 07, 2009 11:05 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:is it a slight alteration of the kalama sutta teaching?


Yes - a slight alteration that makes a significant difference to the meaning.

Metta,
Retro. :)



Quite a bad difference in meaning, puts the message accross that the Buddha taught that people can just do what they wanted
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 07, 2009 11:15 pm

Greetings Craig,

clw_uk wrote:Quite a bad difference in meaning, puts the message accross that the Buddha taught that people can just do what they wanted


Indeed. These generic "Buddha quotes" propagated over the Internet can be quite the problem to the extent that they cause people to get the wrong understanding of the Dhamma.

Back in the day when I moderated at E-Sangha, we actually had to introduce a policy that anything you attributed to the Buddha in your signature had to be referenced, simply because you would get so many people coming in the door, attributing nonsense to the Buddha, and often doing so completely oblivious to the fact they were misrepresenting him. The policy put the emphasis back on the member to just ditch the quote or maybe do a bit of investigation and find out what the Buddha actually taught.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Fri May 08, 2009 4:46 am

It happens so much I felt compelled to make a smiley for it:

Image

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Mexicali » Fri May 08, 2009 5:39 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:It happens so much I felt compelled to make a smiley for it:

Image


I tip my hat to you, sir. This is awesome.
"We do not embrace reason at the expense of emotion. We embrace it at the expense of self-deception."
-- Herbert Muschamp

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 08, 2009 10:05 am

Misquotes or mistranslations can be used to understand Dhamma.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby genkaku » Fri May 08, 2009 11:24 am

Maybe the whole thing is a bit of a sticky wicket:

On the one hand, there are intellectually-sloppy attributions... oh so annoying. :smile:

On the other hand there can be an undue attachment to what is not intellectually sloppy ... as if that were somehow the truth. :jumping:

My own take is that there is only one way to know what the Buddha taught: Realize and actualize it in your own life. Anything else, whether intellectually sloppy or intellectually apt, will always fall short of the mark.

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri May 08, 2009 12:38 pm

So, genkaku, we should make no effort to preserve the Buddha's teachings?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Fede » Fri May 08, 2009 1:04 pm

.... so....

where's this smiley then? :computerproblem:

:jumping:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby genkaku » Fri May 08, 2009 2:44 pm

Peter wrote:So, genkaku, we should make no effort to preserve the Buddha's teachings?


I think it's good to preserve the Buddha's teachings ... as long as we honestly dedicate ourselves to what those teachings are and not to what we imagine them to be. For my money, when you realize there is nothing that can be preserved, there will be fewer problems.

Fewer problems is nice, I think.

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri May 08, 2009 6:19 pm

140. Those monks who explain what is not Dhamma as not Dhamma, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma.

141. Those monks who explain what is Dhamma as Dhamma, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma.

142-9. Those monks who explain not Vinaya as not Vinaya, Vinaya as Vinaya, what was not said by the Tathägata as not said by him, what was said by him as said by him, what was not practised by him as not practised by him, what was practised by him as practised by him, what was not laid down by him as not laid down by him, what was laid down by him as laid down by him, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma.

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Individual » Thu May 14, 2009 4:49 am

Peter wrote:So, genkaku, we should make no effort to preserve the Buddha's teachings?

People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby thornbush » Thu May 14, 2009 5:37 am

Perhaps these 2 Suttas have said it well...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two?
He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata.
And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata.
These are two who slander the Tathagata."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two?
He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out.
And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred.
These are two who slander the Tathagata."

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu May 14, 2009 9:09 am

Individual wrote:People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.


Hi Individual,
how do you mean?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Individual » Thu May 14, 2009 6:59 pm

Manapa wrote:
Individual wrote:People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.


Hi Individual,
how do you mean?

How do I mean what?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu May 14, 2009 8:34 pm

Individual wrote:People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.


Very nicely stated

:anjali:

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 15, 2009 4:46 am

Individual wrote:
Individual wrote:People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.


How do I mean what?


The views! not disenchanted but aloof from views?

on reading this morning I think I understand what you meant but always good to double check!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Individual
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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby Individual » Sat May 16, 2009 4:28 am

Manapa wrote:
Individual wrote:
Individual wrote:People should engage in Right Effort, but they should not be disenchanted by views, that is, they should be aloof from views and not unreasonably expect to preserve anything impermanent.


How do I mean what?


The views! not disenchanted but aloof from views?

on reading this morning I think I understand what you meant but always good to double check!

By relying on discernment rather than the belief, "This view of mine is the correct one".

Attachment is connected to views of self (seeing the truth as "my" view, and what I am refuting as "your" false view) and it is the end of discernment. That is, the end of discernment is the arising of the view of self. When a person concludes, "I have discerned this," discernment ceases. But pure discernment has no end to it.

By being aloof -- that is, distanced from -- views, a person doesn't feel attached to them personally or feel aversion to alternative ideas. Instead, a person sees views as being outside of themselves. This can be easily confused with relativism, nihilism, and certain forms of passive or lazy agnosticism.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Re: Misquote of the Buddha?

Postby clw_uk » Sat May 16, 2009 2:17 pm

By relying on discernment rather than the belief, "This view of mine is the correct one".

Attachment is connected to views of self (seeing the truth as "my" view, and what I am refuting as "your" false view) and it is the end of discernment. That is, the end of discernment is the arising of the view of self. When a person concludes, "I have discerned this," discernment ceases. But pure discernment has no end to it.

By being aloof -- that is, distanced from -- views, a person doesn't feel attached to them personally or feel aversion to alternative ideas. Instead, a person sees views as being outside of themselves. This can be easily confused with relativism, nihilism, and certain forms of passive or lazy agnosticism.


Good post

This i feel stands in line with the teaching that the Dhamma is a raft (in this case the right view aspect). Things not to be clung to but used to get somewhere

Metta
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan


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