the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

I guess the Buddha could have aspired to not eating meat.
I know he ate whatever he was offered but he could have taught people that he was aspiring to not eat meat in which case I'm pretty sure they mostly wouldn't have given him any.
Some people say that he did not teach people this because it would alienate too many of them and drive them away from the Dhamma.....so to these same people I ask "have people changed or even today will teaching people to not eat meat still drive them away from the Dhamma?"....
chownah
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:"Bhikkhus, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."[/list]
So if as Buddhists we choose to buy meat we are expecting somebody else to engage in wrong livelihood.

Spiny
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox »

In the above translation, I read "engage in a business" as something that involves both seller and the buyer. Is that translator's intention... or just my way of reading it? :anjali:
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

beeblebrox wrote:In the above translation, I read "engage in a business" as something that involves both seller and the buyer. Is that translator's intention... or just my way of reading it?
I'm not sure who you are asking, but ...

'... vaṇijjā (trade) upāsakena ('one who draws near' i.e. to the saṅghā = a layman) akaraṇīyā ('should not be done')...'

Because vaṇijjā indicates a reciprocal relationship, the responsibility is on both parties.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox »

Thanks for clarification. It makes a lot of sense then. :anjali:
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by daverupa »

I haven't got a large intestine, which means leafy greens and other insoluble fibers are often painful to digest. What's heartening is that a vegetarian diet can be constructed around even this deficiency; indeed, for the most part leafy greens and other fibrous food items are recommended for consumption largely because the fiber is essential for the health of the large intestine.

What this means for me (and potentially others in a similar situation) is that a "beige diet" is a solid vegetarian choice (...pun?). It is definitely not the best choice for one's diet, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone with a complete digestive tract, but since a multivitamin supplement turns out to be enough to cover a body such as this with respect to plant-based vitamins and minerals (just remember to get chewable ones, or break the pills in half) I have found that removing meat from my diet while still getting sufficient nutrition is possible without pain.

However, this goes against prevailing nutrition science; I mention this here lest others are similarly handicapped and experiencing a moral quandary. One benefit of this is that for many years I've had to think outside the box on this topic, and as a result I think there are two issues connected to this vegetarian issue which are often overlooked: frequency of eating, and exercise.

1. Frequency

Three square meals a day, six smaller meals, one large meal at breakfast, one large meal at dinner - there are many eating patterns, as even a cursory look at the history of human food consumption will show. Therefore, perhaps some here will be interested in understanding calorie restriction, especially since it seems to me that historically, Buddhist monastics would have gone on and off such a "diet" depending on where they wandered, with apparently little ill effect. Indeed, the Buddha's report of health due to eating only two, then only one meal a day may have some science to back it up.

2. Fitness

Cardiovascular health and maintaining proper bone density are just a couple of the benefits which come from staying in motion as a daily habit, but I wonder about the morality of consuming massive amounts of food in preparation for marathons and other extreme fitness pursuits. Indeed, isn't it just this sort of intense exercise which calls for the most meat consumption in order to maintain health?

I believe these two issues deserve more attention than they tend to receive in these sorts of discussions.

:soap:

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Eccedustin
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:56 pm
Location: Tallahassee, Fl

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Eccedustin »

I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.
The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.
Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:

Because vaṇijjā indicates a reciprocal relationship, the responsibility is on both parties.
This makes sense because without customers for a product there would be no need for a supplier.

Spiny
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.
Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:
I know you're joking, but he meant he was vegetarian before he became Buddhist.

And no record, there were plenty of vegetarians and vegans before Buddhism; the Jains, some others, first humans, etc. :tongue:
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.
Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:
I know you're joking, but he meant he was vegetarian before he became Buddhist.
What gave it away? The emoticons? :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
User avatar
RMSmith
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:30 pm
Location: Northern Nevada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by RMSmith »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: What gave it away? The emoticons? :tongue:
Methinks sarcasm is vegetarian. :jumping:
User avatar
Mojo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mojo »

I'm ovo-lacto veg at home always, though I take a fish oil supplement. I'll always choose the veg option if one is available when away from home and whatever is offered if no choice is available.
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

I think fewer of us would eat meat if we had to kill and butcher the animal ourselves.

Spiny
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

I'm a vegetarian mostly because I think it really helps me cultivate non-attachment to food. Having a simple and healthful diet of primarily vegetables and grains and fruits and such can really help a person learn to enjoy simplicity.

I think butchering animals is obviously a hideous thing to do, but I realize that some people don't have any problem with ordering a steak at a restaurant or anything like that. I personally don't feel comfortable doing so but that's fine. As long as they aren't having the meat slaughtered for them, or doing the slaughtering themselves, it's not a breach of any ethics in my mind.

With that said, I think vegetarianism is generally a great choice for everyone (barring certain medical conditions) for a lot of reasons and I'd highly, highly recommend it for its health benefits as well as its ability to help in the cultivation of metta. But it's not a sin to consume meat in and of itself, at least to me. But you can't be a Buddhist and hunt or butcher or sell meat for a living.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
Post Reply