Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

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Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby adosa » Sat May 09, 2009 4:31 pm

Hello all,

I posted this earlier in another thread and still hope to open up the discussion. To me it's an important question as my interpretation leads me to see a conflict in the definitions of the following subject. It doesn't mean there is a conflict but right now, my understanding of the two terms is seeing a conflict.


A Padaparama is an individual who, though he encounters a Buddha Sàsana, and though he puts forth the utmost possible effort in both the study and practice of the Dhamma, cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. All that he can do is to accumulate good habits and potentials (vàsanà).

Such a person cannot obtain release from worldly ills during this lifetime. If he dies while practising samatha (Tranquillity) or vipassanà (Insight), and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva in his next existence, he can attain release from worldly ills in that existence within the present Buddha Sàsana. Thus did the Buddha declare with respect to four classes of individuals.


However...... Dhamma-follower and Faith-follower are define as such:

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear
… The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing,
becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is
called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the
plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of
doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in
the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of
stream-entry.


“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient
degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed
course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the
worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in
hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away
without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.



Does this mean that a Padaparama cannot be a Faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower since a Padaparama cannot attain Stream-entry within this life-time and yet the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower cannot pass away without attaining Stream-entry? I can see where a Dhamma-follower may not be a Padaparma because of his sufficient wisdom. Where I am somewhat confused by is the definition of a Faith-follower when viewed in the context of the definition of a Padaparma.

I'm sure I am missing something, that's why I am asking for clarification.


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby kc2dpt » Sat May 09, 2009 6:29 pm

Didn't someone else ask this exact question just a few days ago?
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby kc2dpt » Sat May 09, 2009 6:33 pm

Found it. It was you, adosa. :lol:
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby Jechbi » Sat May 09, 2009 6:34 pm

I'm also interested in hearing an authoritative answer with explanation, even if it may already have been discussed elsewhere in the past.
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby Dhammanando » Sat May 09, 2009 7:19 pm

adosa wrote:Does this mean that a Padaparama cannot be a Faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower since a Padaparama cannot attain Stream-entry within this life-time and yet the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower cannot pass away without attaining Stream-entry?


Right. The DF and the FF have both arrived at sotāpatti-magga. They are of identical attainment and differ from each other only with regard to whether it is the faculty of understanding (paññindriya) or the faculty of faith (saddhindriya) that is dominant in them.

A padaparama may have faith in the Dhamma, but this does not make him a "faith-follower". He lacks the requisite accumulations of paññā for ariyan attainment in the present life.
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby adosa » Sat May 09, 2009 10:01 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
adosa wrote:Does this mean that a Padaparama cannot be a Faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower since a Padaparama cannot attain Stream-entry within this life-time and yet the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower cannot pass away without attaining Stream-entry?


Right. The DF and the FF have both arrived at sotāpatti-magga. They are of identical attainment and differ from each other only with regard to whether it is the faculty of understanding (paññindriya) or the faculty of faith (saddhindriya) that is dominant in them.

A padaparama may have faith in the Dhamma, but this does not make him a "faith-follower". He lacks the requisite accumulations of paññā for ariyan attainment in the present life.



Thank you Sir,

I suppose the error in my interpretation was in assuming that a Faith-follower had not necessarily reached Stream-entry as of yet, but would do so prior to passing away.

:namaste:


adosa
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby kc2dpt » Sun May 10, 2009 4:43 am

adosa wrote:I suppose the error in my interpretation was in assuming that a Faith-follower had not necessarily reached Stream-entry as of yet

A faith-follower has not reached stream-entry as of yet. If he had he would not be called a faith-follower but rather a stream-enterer.

sotāpatti-magga = the path to stream entry, not the attainment of stream entry or sotāpatti-phala = fruit of stream-entry.
magga = path as in visuddhimagga = path of purification.
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Re: Can a Faith or Dhamma follower be a Padaparama??

Postby Jechbi » Sun May 10, 2009 4:50 am

related thread linky
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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