Mind-made body - a question

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srivijaya
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Mind-made body - a question

Post by srivijaya »

Following retrofuturist's open invitation on another board, I have taken the liberty of joining.

I have a request for information which I hope someone will be able to help me with.

I am interested in uncovering as much as I can about teachings concerning the mind-made body. I have read almost identical formulaic passages in several suttas, all of which are similar to the following:
"DN 11
Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta To Kevatta
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
The Mind-made Body
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.



The only other instruction I have encountered is in the last paragraph of chapter twelve of the Visuddhimagga where Buddhaghosa explains that one should first visualize the body as hollow, then visualize another complete body within the hollow space which should be then drawn out. This is rather sparse to say the least.

I would be interested to know where Buddhaghosa drew this information from and whether there are more comprehensive teachings on this topic elsewhere within the Theravadan school. Does the tradition of these teachings still survive and has anyone ever met, or heard of, individuals who have attained this?

Namaste
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Srivijaya,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.
srivijaya wrote:I would be interested to know where Buddhaghosa drew this information from and whether there are more comprehensive teachings on this topic elsewhere within the Theravadan school.
In the Tipitaka and Atthakathas there isn’t any more detail than what is supplied in the Visuddhimagga. Indeed whenever the subject crops up in the Atthakathas the reader is usually referred to the Visuddhimagga for more detail.

So, if there are any texts that are more expansive than the Visuddhimagga, i suppose one would need to look for them among meditation manuals from later periods.
Does the tradition of these teachings still survive and has anyone ever met, or heard of, individuals who have attained this?
I don’t know.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammakid »

This is an interesting topic, one I would like more information on.

What is the purpose of the "mind-made body"? Why would one want to do this type of practice? What are the benefits?

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:What is the purpose of the "mind-made body"? Why would one want to do this type of practice? What are the benefits?
Firstly, there's the benefit that applies to all supernormal powers, namely, that it permits paññā to be developed with greater ease:
  • Now in order to perfect those kinds of higher knowledge, the task must be undertaken by a meditator who has reached the fourth jhāna in the earth kasina and so on. And in doing this, not only will this development of samādhi have provided benefits in this way, it will also have become more advanced; and when he thus possesses concentration so developed as to have both provided benefits [of the higher knowledges themselves] and become more advanced, he will then more easily perfect the development of wisdom.
    (Path of Purification XII 1)
Secondly, in the case of a Buddha, it allows him to do two things at once. For example, he can go on almsround in Uttarakuru while leaving a mind-made body to carry on teaching the Dhamma to the devas in Tāvatiṃsā. In the case of a disciple, however, this second benefit doesn't seem to apply, for the mind-made body that she creates merely replicates whatever she herself is presently doing.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammakid »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:What is the purpose of the "mind-made body"? Why would one want to do this type of practice? What are the benefits?
Firstly, there's the benefit that applies to all supernormal powers, namely, that it permits paññā to be developed with greater ease:
  • Now in order to perfect those kinds of higher knowledge, the task must be undertaken by a meditator who has reached the fourth jhāna in the earth kasina and so on. And in doing this, not only will this development of samādhi have provided benefits in this way, it will also have become more advanced; and when he thus possesses concentration so developed as to have both provided benefits [of the higher knowledges themselves] and become more advanced, he will then more easily perfect the development of wisdom.
    (Path of Purification XII 1)
Secondly, in the case of a Buddha, it allows him to do two things at once. For example, he can go on almsround in Uttarakuru while leaving a mind-made body to carry on teaching the Dhamma to the devas in Tāvatiṃsā. In the case of a disciple, however, this second benefit doesn't seem to apply, for the mind-made body that she creates merely replicates whatever she herself is presently doing.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Ahh, this helps very much Bhante. Thank you for the explanation.

:namaste:
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by stuka »

srivijaya wrote:Following retrofuturist's open invitation on another board, I have taken the liberty of joining.

I have a request for information which I hope someone will be able to help me with.

I am interested in uncovering as much as I can about teachings concerning the mind-made body. I have read almost identical formulaic passages in several suttas, all of which are similar to the following:
"DN 11
Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta To Kevatta
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
The Mind-made Body
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.



The only other instruction I have encountered is in the last paragraph of chapter twelve of the Visuddhimagga where Buddhaghosa explains that one should first visualize the body as hollow, then visualize another complete body within the hollow space which should be then drawn out. This is rather sparse to say the least.

I would be interested to know where Buddhaghosa drew this information from and whether there are more comprehensive teachings on this topic elsewhere within the Theravadan school. Does the tradition of these teachings still survive and has anyone ever met, or heard of, individuals who have attained this?

Namaste
Hello, and Welcome to Dhamma Wheel, srivijaya.


It seems to me that within the framework of the Buddha's Noble teachings, this practice is intended to explore the limits of one's imagination, with what appears to be an emphasis upon how one's imagination can run wild and carry one off.

The Buddha ultimately discards such practices, in favor of his own practice of seeing and knowing anicca, anatta, and dukkha:
DN 9
Potthapada Sutta
About Potthapada

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the gross acquisition of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now. If the thought should occur to you that, when defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, one's abiding is stressful/painful, you should not see it in that way. When defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, there is joy, rapture, serenity, mindfulness, alertness, and a pleasant/happy abiding.

"I also teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the mind-made acquisition of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now. If the thought should occur to you that, when defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, one's abiding is stressful/painful, you should not see it in that way. When defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, there is joy, rapture, serenity, mindfulness, alertness, and a pleasant/happy abiding.

I also teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the formless acquisition of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now. If the thought should occur to you that, when defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, one's abiding is stressful/painful, you should not see it in that way. When defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, there is joy, rapture, serenity, mindfulness, alertness, and a pleasant/happy abiding.


(From Thanissaro's notes:

Of particular interest here is the Buddha's treatment of the three "acquisitions of a self." The first — the gross self — refers to the ordinary, everyday sense of identifying with one's body. The latter two — the mind-made acquisition and the formless acquisition — refer to the sense of self that can be developed in meditation. The mind-made acquisition can result from an experience of the mind-made body — the "astral body" — that constitutes one of the powers that can be developed through concentration practice. The formless acquisition can result from any of the formless states of concentration — such as an experience of infinite space, infinite consciousness, or nothingness. Although meditators, on experiencing these states, might assume that they have encountered their "true self," the Buddha is careful to note that these are acquisitions, and that they are no more one's true self than the body is. They are one's acquisition of a self only for the time that one identifies with them. The Buddha goes on to say that he teaches the Dhamma for the sake of abandoning every acquisition of a self "such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now."
There are suttas in which the Buddha describes s monk "flying through the air while sitting, diving through the earth as if it were water, disappearing here and reappearing there, etc., (and again, this is also boilerplate language that appears the same every time I have seen it), and I note that in every instance, this immediately follows the Buddha's description of one who is sitting in meditation having "created a mind-made body". All of these various miraculous activities happen as visualizations through the "eyes" of this "mind-made body".

Have you ever dreamed that you were flying? I have, many times. It seems so real. But it is not.

Have you ever believed that you were so very right about something or someone, only to find out conclusively and with much suffering that you were mistaken? I have, many times. The "truth" I thought I saw so clearly seemed so real. But it wasn't.

It seems to me that it is this sort of insight that the Buddha is pointing to here.

This whole description, though, is usually given in the course of a progression of practices that the Buddha had engaged in, before finally coming upon his own practice that brings true liberation: that of seeing and knowing anicca, anatta, dukkha in all things Including in all of the practices that precede this one).
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello Stuka,
Seems like you're right on the money with this analysis. I'm interested to see what everyone else has to say.

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by srivijaya »

Dear Dhammanando,
Many thanks for the welcome and the reply.
Dhammanando wrote:if there are any texts that are more expansive than the Visuddhimagga, i suppose one would need to look for them among meditation manuals from later periods.
Intriguing. I imagine if there are such works then they would be very old, virtually impossible to locate and certainly untranslated.

Stuka, thanks for your quote which places this practice in its proper context, as a means to an end.

I personally feel hesitant in ascribing a value judgement based only upon the scant materials I have read (if indeed this is all there is) as I suspect it may be incorrect. It is easy for anyone to conclude that (as this practice has no relevance within the modern school) it has, by virtue of that fact alone, demonstrated itself to be inefficacious.

That Buddha thought it important enough to teach to some monks is evidenced by its inclusion. There are practices which attracted Buddha's censure and this, even the most uncharitable must concede, was not one of them.

At the end of the day, if this practice has vanished, then any speculation is academic. I had the impression that it had, although one can never be 100% sure. I once heard some vague (and probably incorrect) anecdotal evidence to the contrary - hence my query.

Many thanks to all who have read and replied.

Namaste
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Individual »

Because of the process of rebirth, I think that the body is made by the mind already.

From the Dhammapada
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
By "mind-made body," the Buddha seems to mean an intentionally mind-made body, a body made by mind that is noble, worthy of a Buddhist, delightful, and strong.

In one's own life, this means acting morally, meditating to develop self-discipline, and taking care of one's body through proper diet and exercise. One's kamma from this life lays the basis for the structure of the body in the next. Regarding the body as "hollow," is simply another way of describing anatta, with regards to the body.
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,

However, it says nothing about "mind precedes all physical states".

Nor do I recall anything in the suttas that says anything to this effect either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,

However, it says nothing about "mind precedes all physical states".

Nor do I recall anything in the suttas that says anything to this effect either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
That's one particular translation, sorry... I should've probably used a different one. The Pali used there for "mental states" is "manopubbangama dhamma". I don't know Pali very well, but this seems to be mano+pubba+angama (maybe not). PTS dictionary defines this word, in their entry on mano as "directed by mind, dominated by thought," and there's some more info on pubbangama in their entry on pubba "going before, preceding".

Ah, I just found a detailed break-down of the grammar here.

Anyway, despite the grammar, consider the context. Within the context, speaking is not strictly a mental act, "acting" is not simply a mental act, and suffering is not merely a mental act.

So, considering all this, Ven. Thanisarro translates it as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Phenomena are preceded by the heart,
ruled by the heart,
made of the heart.
And Ven. Narada translates it:

http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... go-e2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they.
Gil Fronsdal translate it as, from what I remember, "All experiences are created by mind, led by mind, made by mind."

Also, there's a certain sutta (can't remember which, though, somebody please help me out) where the Buddha refutes materialism and idealism by saying that nama and rupa are conjoined, that nama is not "of its own effort" (something to that effect) and neither is nama, but that the two are co-dependent.

Also, in disputing that all material is conditioned by mind, it seems like you have little basis to even say that there is such a thing as "science".
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by stuka »

srivijaya wrote:
Stuka, thanks for your quote which places this practice in its proper context, as a means to an end.
From what the Buddha says above, he seems to point out that is rather a dead end, rather than a means to the end of suffering.
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Hi Retro,

Let's loosely define "mind" for the moment as "citta" and see if we can say if "citta defines at least SOME physical states," at least in terms of how the Abhidhamma describes how the dying-citta of individual "A" gives rise to the patisandhi-citta of Individual "B." Which process presumably conditions the physical conditions of Individual "B's" birth. At lease let's say this if it doesn't drift :offtopic: :rofl:

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Cittasanto »

I was looking through some pages at some information on the Satipatthana Sutta and noticed this on the mind made body
hope it provides adequate food for thought
http://halfsmile.org/buddhadust/www.bud ... ndMadeBody" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by srivijaya »

Thanks Manapa,
Certainly some food for thought there - a very interesting page. I came across a few additional lines in MN77 which may help throw a little more light on the topic. In addition to the usual formula; "reed from its sheath" etc. there are the following lines:
Again, Udayin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to create from this body another body having form, mind-made, with all its limbs, lacking no faculty
Here, Buddha uses the words "proclaimed the way" which seems to indicate that he was actually instructing monks, not just mentioning it in passing.
In the same passage, he mentions the benefit those disciples gained from this practice:
And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the consummation and perfection of direct knowledge
That almost reads like an endorsement but sounds very positive in any case.

Namaste
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