Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

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mikenz66
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Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by mikenz66 »

Listened to this talk by Joseph Goldstein yesterday:
2002-10-02 Desire 59:51
http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?search=desire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The useful point he brought out is that it's not particular things we are attached to, it's how they make us feel.
So when we find ourselves thinking "I'm not attached to X (drinking a cup of tea was one of his examples)..." it can be helpful to look at what feelings are generated by the object or action.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings.
:anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:The useful point he brought out is that it's not particular things we are attached to, it's how they make us feel.
Ah, I see... so when Joseph Goldstein says it.....

:rofl:

Anyway, yes, I concur whole-heartedly with Joseph's incredibly useful point. Vedana is in loka, and if attention is placed there within loka correctly , "particular things" are not discerned/regarded as "particular things", and we're not falsely lulled into believing that it's those "particular things" (out there) that we desire.

:thumbsup:

The following couplet of suttas are also directly connected to this matter...

SN 47.6: Sakunagghi Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SN 47.7: Makkata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These suttas also help illustrate the significance of the Satipatthana Sutta's "in & of itself" refrain.

:reading:

Now, I desire the vedana (in and of itself) that arises through warm caffeine-consumption, so off to the coffee-machine I go!

:coffee:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:The useful point he brought out is that it's not particular things we are attached to, it's how they make us feel.
Ah, I see... so when Joseph Goldstein says it....
I thought pretty much all vipassana teachers teach this, in one way or another.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:I thought pretty much all vipassana teachers teach this, in one way or another.
I'm pleased to hear it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:I thought pretty much all vipassana teachers teach this, in one way or another.
I'm pleased to hear it.
Don't just hear it, feel it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, all suttana-method vipassana here...

:anjali:
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Goofaholix wrote:Don't just hear it, feel it.
Reading that I feel as if I should be hearing loud music, seeing refracted laser-lights, feeling the movement of the body, smelling sweat and smoke, thinking of witty chat-up lines, and tasting precept-violating beverages.

Image

8-)

On the off-chance that there was anything deeper implied... words are needed for communication, and the Dhamma cannot be communicated by holding a lotus flower alone. Because words are used, it would be wrong to assume there are only words, and that they are neither pointing to experience, nor utilisation of the implications the words point to. Such assumptions would be regarding others in bad faith. Apologies if that appears a bit pre-emptive, but it does get somewhat wearisome when because I use the language of suttas rather than the language of contemporary vipassana teachers, I am assumed to be engaging in sutta bookwormery, rather than samma sati and/or samma samadhi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by amtross »

Goofaholix wrote: Don't just hear it, feel it.
I laughed out loud at that one! Thanks for that....
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:On the off-chance that there was anything deeper implied... words are needed for communication, and the Dhamma cannot be communicated by holding a lotus flower alone. Because words are used, it would be wrong to assume there are only words, and that they are neither pointing to experience, nor utilisation of the implications the words point to. Such assumptions would be regarding others in bad faith. Apologies if that appears a bit pre-emptive, but it does get somewhat wearisome when because I use the language of suttas rather than the language of contemporary vipassana teachers, I am assumed to be engaging in sutta bookwormery, rather than samma sati and/or samma samadhi.
As they say in Thai "kit maak!".

If one can talk about these things in ones own words from personal experience as well as in terms of what the suttas say then I'd say there is nothing to fear about the assumptions of others.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:If one can talk about these things in ones own words from personal experience as well as in terms of what the suttas say then I'd say there is nothing to fear about the assumptions of others.
Nothing to fear, for sure... but it's desirable to discuss the Dhamma amongst ourselves without diffusion and caricature.

All good. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:. Apologies if that appears a bit pre-emptive, but it does get somewhat wearisome when because I use the language of suttas rather than the language of contemporary vipassana teachers, I am assumed to be engaging in sutta bookwormery, rather than samma sati and/or samma samadhi.
I'm fine with the language and Dhamma of the Suttas. That's what I was discussing in the first place and always have. Sutta-based meditation.

:anjali:
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:If one can talk about these things in ones own words from personal experience as well as in terms of what the suttas say then I'd say there is nothing to fear about the assumptions of others.
Nothing to fear, for sure... but it's desirable to discuss the Dhamma amongst ourselves without diffusion and caricature.
Diffusion and caricature? Who does that? Goldstein?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Diffusion and caricature? Who does that? Goldstein?
No, no... I'm talking about the general tendency in contemporary Dhamma discourse for patipatta and pariyatti to be falsely typecast as two mutually exclusive activities, or two different Dhamma paths. The diffusion arises when an individual is typecast as falling exclusively into either domain, and the perception of their words is filtered by the listener accordingly. Goof made clear this was not what he was doing when he said "Don't just hear it, feel it", and I was pleased to hear it.

Got it now?...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by mikenz66 »

Well, having got the meta-discussion out of the way, does anyone have any actual comments about this (not intended to be earth-shattering) subject.

Since Goldstein is presumably addressing people who have a similar practice to mine, based to a large extent on the Satipatthana Sutta (pay attention to the various stuff) and the more obvious links of the dependent origination suttas:
  • From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
    From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
    From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
    From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging.
the observation that "it's how objects make us feel that is what we cling to, not the objects themselves" is rather obvious. And it is obvious when we are concentrated, mindful, and paying attention. But when we relax that attention, especially outside of retreat or daily practice conditions, it can be much less obvious what exactly is causing the craving and clinging.

A minor point of Dhamma, but, like many other points, something I'm not always good at remembering.

:anjali:
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Diffusion and caricature? Who does that? Goldstein?
No, no... I'm talking about the general tendency in contemporary Dhamma discourse for patipatta and pariyatti to be falsely typecast as two mutually exclusive activities, or two different Dhamma paths. The diffusion arises when an individual is typecast as falling exclusively into either domain, and the perception of their words is filtered by the listener accordingly. Goof made clear this was not what he was doing when he said "Don't just hear it, feel it", and I was pleased to hear it.

Got it now?...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
I got it, but there was no way to get it without your explanation of your statement. I cannot read your mind. So thanks for the explication.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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