It is more than a minor point, and at times we do need to have things such as this directly stated.mikenz66 wrote:the observation that "it's how objects make us feel that is what we cling to, not the objects themselves" is rather obvious. And it is obvious when we are concentrated, mindful, and paying attention. But when we relax that attention, especially outside of retreat or daily practice conditions, it can be much less obvious what exactly is causing the craving and clinging.
A minor point of Dhamma, but, like many other points, something I'm not always good at remembering.
Mike
Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
Greetings,
Ud 1.10: Bahiya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
Indeed, and underpins the instructions to Bahiya.tiltbillings wrote:It is more than a minor point
Ud 1.10: Bahiya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
Would you care to elaborate on the particular relevance of that sutta to the OP? Sorry, but dense today. I mean clearly if one managed to follow the instructions mentioned in that sutta there won't be clinging, by definition, but is there something in particular in that sutta that illuminates the "feeling as a clinging trap" problem?retrofuturist wrote:Indeed, and underpins the instructions to Bahiya.tiltbillings wrote:It is more than a minor point
Ud 1.10: Bahiya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
Greetings Mike,
As per my earlier example, "Now, I desire the vedana (in and of itself) that arises through warm caffeine-consumption, so off to the coffee-machine I go!".
Or to give another more personal example, when you get irritated at me, it's not the external object "retrofuturist" or "Paul" that is actual object of that irritation. The irritatant is the "fetter" (i.e. vibhava-tanha) that arises dependent upon seeing my words...
The desire for everyone to agree on points of Dhamma is a similar example as well... if we relinquish perception of self and external selves by following Bahiya's lead and deal exclusively within the sixfold-sense-sphere, there is no compulsion towards concurrence of perceived selves, and no fetter or suffering arises on account of conceived things in the external world not doing what we would like them to do.
Metta,
Retro.
Sure. In the example of "a cup of tea", as given above, by following the instructions given to Bahiya...mikenz66 wrote:Would you care to elaborate on the particular relevance of that sutta to the OP?
... we would be cognizing the desire itself (i.e. in reference to the cognized, only the cognized). If one is training in accordance with the observation of "only the seen", "only the heard" etc. then there is correct discernment of experience within the six-sensefold-sphere. Because of this, any thought of "a cup of tea" would be discerned as "only the cognized"... i.e. a thought about a cup of tea. When the "cup of tea" is regarded correctly as a concept/cognition, it does not intrude into awareness (as an assumed extant thing), and one can become aware that the desired object actually lies within the six-sensefold-sphere as opposed to outside it. In the example given by Goldstein, the desire is towards "the sensed". Discerning that, it's becomes much less attractive, as it can be regarded through vipassana as possessing the three characteristics, and penetrated through insight. Whilst we labour under the misconception the object of desire is external, we cannot penetrate it with insight as it falls beyond our range to do so."Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself."
If one has trained in accordance with these instructions and seen them through to fruition in terms of the complete and remainderless cessation of avijja, then yes, that's correct. However, they are instructions only, and because there is still avijja, we will (when not discerning correctly) desire objects outside the six-sensefold-sphere of loka/sabba, and find frustration as a result.mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, but dense today. I mean clearly if one managed to follow the instructions mentioned in that sutta there won't be clinging, by definition, but is there something in particular in that sutta that illuminates the "feeling as a clinging trap" problem?
As per my earlier example, "Now, I desire the vedana (in and of itself) that arises through warm caffeine-consumption, so off to the coffee-machine I go!".
Or to give another more personal example, when you get irritated at me, it's not the external object "retrofuturist" or "Paul" that is actual object of that irritation. The irritatant is the "fetter" (i.e. vibhava-tanha) that arises dependent upon seeing my words...
Thus, if all our suffering can be understood with reference to the sixfold-sense-sphere (as opposed to "contact" between "self" and "other") then liberating discernment can arise.MN 10 wrote:"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)"
The desire for everyone to agree on points of Dhamma is a similar example as well... if we relinquish perception of self and external selves by following Bahiya's lead and deal exclusively within the sixfold-sense-sphere, there is no compulsion towards concurrence of perceived selves, and no fetter or suffering arises on account of conceived things in the external world not doing what we would like them to do.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
OK, thanks that's how I was understanding it. No disagreement there with my first post that I can see.
Mike
Mike
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Re: Desire (Joseph Goldstein)
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."