SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby daverupa » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:46 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:47 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:54 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:18 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:36 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:30 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:36 am

"[If one thinks] 'The one who acts is one, the one who experiences [the result] is another,' [then one asserts] with reference to one stricken by feeling: 'Suffering is created by another.' When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism."

[More comments from BB on the language and how the Commentary interprets it...]

Spk: If at the beginning (one thinks) "The one who acts is one, the one who experiences (the result) is another," ins such a case afterwards there comes the belief, "Suffering is created by another," held by one stricken by --- that is, pierced by --- the feeling associated with the annihilationist view that arises thus: 'The agent is annihilated right here, and someone else ('another') experiences (the results) of his deeds. Asserting thus, from the beginning one declares annihilationism, one grasps hold of annihilationism. Why? Because the view one holds amounts to this. Annihilationism comes upon him.

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:18 am

Indeed, in all cases I can recall it's not really the past or future that are the problem.
See, for example, MN 131 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nana.html where conceiving about a self in the past, future, or present, is the problem. Perhaps the current Sutta benefits from comparison with that one.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:05 am

"Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle. 'With ignorance as condition, volitional formations...'"

Spk: The Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle without veering to either of these extremens --- eternalism or annihilationism --- having abandoned them without reservation. He teaches while being established in the middle way. What is that Dhamma? By the formula of dependent origination, the effect is shown to occur through the cause and to cease with the cessation of the cause, but no agent or experiencer (karaka, vedaka) is described.

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby reflection » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:42 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:12 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:03 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:14 pm

Greetings Sam,

In this case, the Middle Way dissects...

'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.' and 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

In the suttas there are many examples of "extremes" which the Middle Way enables one to navigate through.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:26 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby reflection » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:27 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:29 pm

Greetings Reflection,

Yes, I assumed that was your view. I was just presenting alternative support for my earlier stated comment that "He knows the Truth of Dukkha, and because He knows the Truth of Dukkha, He does not suffer."

There's no need for us to concur on such matters, so I'll leave it there.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:58 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:07 am

Greetings,

Indeed. Should anyone wish to hunt them out, there are further instances of this point Mike makes in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons, explained using the simile of two ends of a rope.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:15 am



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