SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

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reflection
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by reflection »

vinasp wrote:Hi Mike,

"It it not that I do not know and see suffering, Kassapa. I know suffering, I see suffering."

My interpretation of this is that it can be understood in two ways.

!. The Buddha remembers what suffering is like, from his life before
his awakening.

2. The Buddha knows and sees suffering in other people, almost everyone
that he encounters - including Kassapa.

Regards, Vincent.
Possible explanations, but

3. The Buddha is still suffering.

You know he said, old age is suffering. The BUddha still had to die. Dying is suffering. It may all be bodily suffering and not mental, but it is still suffering and it arose from the same process of dependent origination.
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
reflection wrote:The BUddha still had to die. Dying is suffering. It may all be bodily suffering and not mental, but it is still suffering and it arose from the same process of dependent origination.
Alternatively, from the Vinaya...
MV 1.6 wrote:Upaka: Do you mean to say that you claim to have won victory over birth and death?
Buddha: Indeed friend I am a Victorious One; and now, in this world of the spiritually blind, I go to Benares to beat the drum of Deathlessness."
And the Suttas...
SN 12.17 (retrofuturist translation) wrote:From personal identification as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
AN 10.60 (retrofuturist translation) wrote:This truly is the most peaceful and refined, that is to say, the stilling of all formations, the foresaking of all acquisitions, and every substratum of identification, the fading away of craving, cessation, nibbana.
MN 26 wrote:"... the unborn, unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by Sam Vara »

"Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle. 'With ignorance as condition, volitional formations...'"
Could anyone please explain why this is "by the middle", as opposed to being a new way, a third view, an alternative conception, etc?
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,

In this case, the Middle Way dissects...

'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.' and 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

In the suttas there are many examples of "extremes" which the Middle Way enables one to navigate through.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by Sam Vara »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sam,

In this case, the Middle Way dissects...

'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.' and 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

In the suttas there are many examples of "extremes" which the Middle Way enables one to navigate through.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

Yes, I am familiar with the idea of the Middle Way enabling one to navigate between extremes, but cannot in this case see why the (fairly standard) formula of paticcasamuppada constitutes a Middle Way. Does paticcasamuppada somehow embody aspects of both Eternalism and Annihilationism? They seem to be mutually exclusive positions, and therefore subject to the law of excluded middle. Paticcasamuppada seems to be looking at something else, rather than the two wrong views or some position midway between them.
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by reflection »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
reflection wrote:The BUddha still had to die. Dying is suffering. It may all be bodily suffering and not mental, but it is still suffering and it arose from the same process of dependent origination.
Alternatively, from the Vinaya...
MV 1.6 wrote:Upaka: Do you mean to say that you claim to have won victory over birth and death?
Buddha: Indeed friend I am a Victorious One; and now, in this world of the spiritually blind, I go to Benares to beat the drum of Deathlessness."
And the Suttas...
SN 12.17 (retrofuturist translation) wrote:From personal identification as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
AN 10.60 (retrofuturist translation) wrote:This truly is the most peaceful and refined, that is to say, the stilling of all formations, the foresaking of all acquisitions, and every substratum of identification, the fading away of craving, cessation, nibbana.
MN 26 wrote:"... the unborn, unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage."
Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi,

These things refer to this being his last life and therefore his last death. In another way, it's his last bit of karma. After that last death is the deathless, unageing etc. Victory over birth and death should be viewed in that context. You can't deny the Buddha did not age after his enlightenment or that he did not die.

With metta,
Reflection
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Reflection,

Yes, I assumed that was your view. I was just presenting alternative support for my earlier stated comment that "He knows the Truth of Dukkha, and because He knows the Truth of Dukkha, He does not suffer."

There's no need for us to concur on such matters, so I'll leave it there.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by mikenz66 »

Sam Vega wrote: Yes, I am familiar with the idea of the Middle Way enabling one to navigate between extremes, but cannot in this case see why the (fairly standard) formula of paticcasamuppada constitutes a Middle Way. Does paticcasamuppada somehow embody aspects of both Eternalism and Annihilationism? They seem to be mutually exclusive positions, and therefore subject to the law of excluded middle. Paticcasamuppada seems to be looking at something else, rather than the two wrong views or some position midway between them.
Some of the commentary I posted on SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta addresses this point:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 69#p170723" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ajahn Pasanno wrote:Although these passages portray the Middle Way as balancing two ends of a
continuum, there are other instances where the Buddha defines the Middle Way as a
precise approach that cuts through the continuum entirely. This is especially apparent
in passages where he discusses the Middle Way in terms, not of behavior or
motivation, but of Right View.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 69#p170881" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: Dependent origination offers a radically different perspective that transcends the two extremes. It shows that individual existence is constituted by a current of conditioned phenomena devoid of metaphysical self yet continuing on from birth to birth as long as the causes that sustain it remain effective.
So "middle way" doesn't always mean "the average of two bad extremes" ("a dash of eternalism and a pinch of annihilationism" :)). It means a path that avoids the extremes.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Indeed. Should anyone wish to hunt them out, there are further instances of this point Mike makes in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons, explained using the simile of two ends of a rope.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by mikenz66 »

Hmm, I should have in included the Bhikkhu Nanananda quote as well.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 69#p170030" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nanananda wrote:In this sense, too, the worldling's way of thinking has a ten-
dency to go to extremes. It goes to one extreme or the other.
When it was said that the world, for the most part, rests on a di-
chotomy, such as that between the two views `Is' and `Is not',
this idea of a framework is already implicit. The worldling's
ways of thought `end-up' in one extreme or the other within
this framework. The arahant transcends it, his consciousness
is, therefore, endless, ananta.
:anjali:
Mike
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by mikenz66 »

"May I receive the going forth under the Blessed One, may I receive the higher ordination?"

BB: The going forth (pabbajja) is the initial ordination as a novice (samanera); the higher ordination (upasampada) admits the novice to full membership in the Sangha as a bhikkhu.


"Kassapa, one formerly belonging to another sect who desires the going forth..."

BB: For details on the ordination of a wander formerly belonging to another sect, see Vin I 69-71.

Spk: The candidate is actually given the going forth and lives as a novice during the probationary period, after which the bhikkhus give him the higher ordination if they are satisfied with him. The Buddha, however, is entitled to waive the usual procedure when he recognizes that the candidate is sufficiently competent and need not be tested. In Kasspa's case he had the going forth given to him; then, immediately after, Kassapa was brought back to him and he called an assembly of bhikkhus and administered the higher ordination.
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by Sam Vara »

Mike and Retro,

Thank you for your replies. I thought it was as you say, but appreciate your confirmations.
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:Hi Mike,

"It it not that I do not know and see suffering, Kassapa. I know suffering, I see suffering."

My interpretation of this is that it can be understood in two ways.

!. The Buddha remembers what suffering is like, from his life before
his awakening.

2. The Buddha knows and sees suffering in other people, almost everyone
that he encounters - including Kassapa.

Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,

I think your interpretations may be misleading. It seems to me you try to bring suffering together with a person, either for him (the Buddha before his awakening) or for other people but as I see it, this is unnecessary. For me the Buddhas statement "I know suffering, I see suffering" doesn't mean to see suffering for me or for others, it means to know/see how suffering arises, changes, ceases. It's not about "my" suffering, "your" suffering, "their" suffering, it's about knowing/seeing pañc'upādāna-khandha as it is.

best wishes, aicnteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Post by mikenz66 »

See also this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 87#p173487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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