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The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma" - Dhamma Wheel

The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

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The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:06 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:16 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:40 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:47 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:51 pm

Hi everyone,

"He understands thus: 'This, indeed, is how there comes to be
be the inclusion, gathering, and amassing of things into these
five aggregates affected by clinging. Now this has been said by
the Blessed One: "One who sees dependent origination sees the
Dhamma, one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination."
And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently
arisen." [MN 28.38 Bhikkhu Bodhi]

Please note: "... gathering and amassing of things ...", and
that this "mass" of things is "dependently arisen" - past tense.

He sees that all the things which have arisen are capable of ceasing.
Because what has arisen in dependence on ignorance, will cease when
ignorance is eliminated.

It has no connection with experience through the five senses.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby Ariya Suriya » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:31 pm

Yes, the dhamma-eye is not common understanding, it is experienced in an "intuitive" trascendental way. I wish I had it.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby piotr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:39 pm

Hi Mike,

In ‘yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman’ti only a verb (atthi - to be) is omitted, a subject is there (kiñci - whatever). But it's nothing uncommon in Pāli as well as in many other languages. The usual translation might sound not so profound but I guess that in order to understand its meaning one has to connect it with specific conditionality and therefore with dependent arising.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:54 pm


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:10 pm

Greetings Mike,

Nice example re: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

I guess it goes to show that one should use what one has learned (for what else could be used?), but in doing so should vigilantly remain open to improvements, enhancements, and even revisions of that accumulated understanding.

:candle: :meditate: :reading: :meditate: :anjali: :meditate: :reading: :meditate: :candle:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:35 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:45 am

Thanks Geoff,

Do you have a reference and/or any elaboration you'd care to share?

[Also note that what was quoted were Ajahn Pasanno's words, not mine...]

All the best.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:26 pm

Hi Mike,

There is not a lot said about the "opening of the Dhamma-Eye", in the
Sutta Pitaka. Here are some of my thoughts.

1. The main distinction was between "ordinary person" and "noble disciple".

2. The ordinary person does not understand the four truths, but the noble
disciple does understand them.[ PTS GS I page 67, and footnote 1.]

3. Understanding the four truths is the same as attaining right view, and
therefore, signifies entry into the noble eightfold path.

4. The "stream" is said to be the noble eightfold path, so whoever has
attained the path has entered the stream.

The main "breakthrough" seems to be what is called the "penetration" of
the four truths. So perhaps we should look at these in detail.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:17 pm


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:47 pm

Hi everyone,

Here is the Sutta from PTS Gradual Sayings Vol. 1, page 67.
[ The book of twos, chapter V, #4]

"Monks, there are these two companies. What two? The Ariyan and the
un-Ariyan (1). And what, monks, is the un-Ariyan company?
Herein, monks, in whatsoever company the monks understand not, as it
really is, the meaning of "This is suffering"; understand not, as it
really is, the meaning of "This is the arising of suffering"; understand
not, as it really is, the meaning of "This is the ending of suffering";
understand not ... "This is the practice leading to the ending of
suffering", - this company is called "the un-Ariyan."
And what, monks is the Ariyan company? (The reverse of the above).
..... These are the two companies, and of these two the Ariyan company
has the pre-eminence.

Footnote 1. Comy, distinguishes them as "that of noble disciples" and
"that of the ordinary persons".

[ I have made some minor changes, such as replacing "Ill" with "suffering".]

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Hi everyone,

One of the best Sutta's for understanding what the stream-enterer has
understood is SN 12.41
I will note the main points. [ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 578]

1. A noble disciple can declare himself to be a "stream-enterer", when:

a) Five fears have subsided.

b) He possesses the four factors of stream-entry.

c) He has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble
method.

Details of the third item (c) the noble method, is given below:

"And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly
penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends
closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus:"When this
exists, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When
this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of
this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional
formations [come to be] .... Such is the origin of this whole mass
of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation
of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; .........
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering."

It does not say that he has penetrated the four noble truths, but
this is because dependent origination is the detailed understanding
of the four noble truths.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:56 pm


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:02 pm


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:11 pm

just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:21 pm



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