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Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:27 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

danieLion
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby danieLion » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:31 am

What does Ven. Thanissaro and Ven. Lee say is the goal of Keeping The Breath In Mind?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:33 am


carlosm
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby carlosm » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:58 pm


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marc108
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby marc108 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:15 pm

I would have to strongly disagree with phil, especially in saying "most people who study Dhamma seriously are able to see past Thanissaro Bhikkhu pretty easily". Feeling the subtle breath energy in the eyes is no different than feeling the physical breath energy raising the abdomen, imo... One is just a more gross, and one a more subtle movement of energy.

I'm unsure if the OP's question was about manipulating the breath itself, or manipulating the breath towards the goal of pleasure but I would like to comment on both:

First, I know many teachers teach passive observation of the breath as the sole means... but it seems clear from the Sutta's on Anapanasati that the Buddha taught both passive and active parts of the practice. You can see this clear difference in the descriptions of discerning vs training, re: "he discerns, I am breathing" vs "He trains himself, 'I will breathe". "trains himself, I will breath" is a clear reference to actively manipulating the breath.

Second, towards the goal of feeling pleasure... Ven. Thanissaro teaches Jhana, and accessing Jhana through Anapanasati requires using pleasure as a springboard or access point. Beyond the goal of Jhana, manipulating the breath to bring up relaxation and good feelings in the mind at the beginning of sitting is, imo, an extremely skillful way to assist in the process of letting go and greatly deepens concentration. Sensual pleasure and the pleasure that arises from sense withdrawl in meditation are completely different things... Meditation is supposedto be enjoyable and pleasurable, the Buddha was very clear about this imo.

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

:smile:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:37 pm

When we breath it isn't an activity that happens just at the nostrils, or just in the abdomen, the whole body breathes, the whole body vibrates subtely.

I think a lot of people who hear instructions to be aware of the breathing at just one point can end up clamping down on just that point and miss the fact that there is sensation and vibration happening throughout the body in time with the breathing.

I think Thanissaros instructions are designed to open us up to awareness of the whole body through noticing the affect the breath has on the whole body. Some people might end up imagining it when they are looking for sensation that they didn't know was there though, this would be a problem if they get cauught up in it.

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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby twelph » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:45 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:53 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:57 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby twelph » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:09 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:27 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby marc108 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:42 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Postby farmer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:57 pm


twelph
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Postby twelph » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:17 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:33 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby marc108 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:48 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby twelph » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:19 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:33 pm


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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:35 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

twelph
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breathe

Postby twelph » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:46 pm



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