A Logical Sacrifice?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:17 am

Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:32 am

Greetings,

Whether it can or cannot, following the lead of the Vinaya I'd suggest that it should not be endorsed or encouraged.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Whether it can or cannot, following the lead of the Vinaya I'd suggest that it should not be endorsed or encouraged.

Metta,
Retro. :)

I am in a very vulnerable and morbid time, right now. So, I am not sure of my wording or thinking, but I know my family would be better off without me, however, I cannot live with out them. All my wife has too is go home and all of our money problems are solved. My kids have food, clothes, a home and they no longer have to depend on me. I am failing as a father and husband. If they leave, I can't handle that, so why not check out. In the end it would be better for all, less suffering for my wife and children.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:46 am

Greetings Thaibebop,

Please speak to your wife about your thoughts, and if you're both Buddhist, have the courage collectively to seek guidance from a local bhikkhu whom you trust.

Take care.

:heart:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby santa100 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:49 am

Even on a logical and practical standpoint, suicide should be ranked at the very bottom of the list. There's a potential only unique to human beings to be able to help oneself and to help many other sentient beings. So cutting off a human life would mean cutting of that unique potential for the benefit to oneself and to many others..
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Thaibebop,

Please speak to your wife about your thoughts, and if you're both Buddhist, have the courage collectively to seek guidance from a local bhikkhu whom you trust.

Take care.

:heart:

Metta,
Retro. :)

We are in Middle America, there is no one here. My wife thinks I am just being dramatic and not handling stress well, but I know that everything that upsets her and ruins are children's future would go away if I did. So, I am on my own.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:09 am

santa100 wrote:Even on a logical and practical standpoint, suicide should be ranked at the very bottom of the list. There's a potential only unique to human beings to be able to help oneself and to help many other sentient beings. So cutting off a human life would mean cutting of that unique potential for the benefit to oneself and to many others..

Can'r say I view myself that way, I have messed up way too much to be considered a person of any value. I am walking bad luck and fit into society like a square peg in a round hole.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby santa100 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:17 am

Since you're writing to this forum, I assume you have some basic understanding about the Impermanence concept. It's one of the three fundamental characteristics of life. It's not a depressing concept at all for even mishap and misery are also subjected to impermanence! They soon will come to pass! You might've messed up way too much, but your state of being messed up will not last forever. As long as you're willing to put in some effort to change. It will change. Have faith and be strong. Good luck..
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby cooran » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:20 am

Hello thaibebop,

Your current view of how things are is most likely distorted. Things do not stay the same, everything changes - so the bad times will pass and you WILL be happy again. Do not leave your wife and children alone. Children need a father their whole life long.

Please call and talk toll-free to someone here:
For Suicide Prevention & Emotional Crisis - When You Feel You Can't Go On
http://suicidehotlines.com/

From a buddhist perspective, suicide by ordinary unenlightened worldlings is likely to have very bad rebirth results.

Here is a previous thread:
Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6087&start=0

with metta and karuna,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:26 am

Thaibebop wrote:I am in a very vulnerable and morbid time, right now. So, I am not sure of my wording or thinking, but I know my family would be better off without me, however, I cannot live with out them. All my wife has too is go home and all of our money problems are solved. My kids have food, clothes, a home and they no longer have to depend on me. I am failing as a father and husband. If they leave, I can't handle that, so why not check out. In the end it would be better for all, less suffering for my wife and children.


I'm guessing your wife is Thai and you are saying that all your money problems would be solved if your family moves back to Thailand, is that correct?

Can you not move there with them?

I don't believe suicide is ever an answer to life's problems, perhaps with the exception of terminal illness to prevent unnecessary suffering, even if you think you are helping others.

I hope you find the courage to think this through and find a good solution.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby plwk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:39 am

Image

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there.
A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east.
A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north.
And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years.

Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"
"It would be a sheer coincidence, Lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state.
It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, Worthy & Rightly Self-Awakened, arises in the world.
It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Doctrine & Discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

Now, this human state has been obtained.
A Tathagata, Worthy & Rightly Self-Awakened, has arisen in the world.
A Doctrine & Discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation,
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.'
Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the Path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

Chiggala Sutta

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:13 am

Sometimes, we think we have done something very very wrong, but actually if we cool down and look the things from broader perspective, there is no something called right or wrong.

This reality doesn't have identity. This reality is free from any right and wrong idea. If we think this is right, that is just our mind thinking this is right. If we think this is wrong, this is also just our mind thinking this is wrong.

By knowing that right or wrong are from this mind, not from reality, what is the point to blame this and that?

People say some time your life is up, sometime your life is down. However, only deluded people think And see their life in that way.

Right from the start, there is already no up and no down. Just our perspective.

This human life is difficult to get, extremely difficult.

Please see this story. Hopefully it can give you some insight:

(There is nothing right or wrong, or joyful or suffering, just depend on how we look this reality)

One day in late summer, an old farmer was working in his field with his old sick horse. The farmer felt compassion for the horse and desired to lift its burden. So he left his horse loose to go the mountains and live out the rest of its life.

Soon after, neighbors from the nearby village visited, offering their condolences and said, "What a shame.  Now your only horse is gone.  How unfortunate you are!. You must be very sad. How will you live, work the land, and prosper?" The farmer replied: "Who knows? We shall see".

Two days later the old horse came back now rejuvenated after meandering in the mountainsides while eating the wild grasses. He came back with twelve new younger and healthy horses which followed the old horse into the corral.
Word got out in the village of the old farmer's good fortune and it wasn't long before people stopped by to congratulate the farmer on his good luck.  "How fortunate you are!" they exclaimed. You must be very happy!"  Again, the farmer softly said, "Who knows? We shall see."

At daybreak on the next morning, the farmer's only son set off to attempt to train the new wild horses, but the farmer's son was thrown to the ground and broke his leg.  One by one villagers arrived during the day to bemoan the farmer's latest misfortune.  "Oh, what a tragedy!  Your son won't be able to help you farm with a broken leg. You'll have to do all the work yourself, How will you survive? You must be very sad".  they said.  Calmly going about his usual business the farmer answered, "Who knows? We shall see"
Several days later a war broke out. The Emperor's men arrived in the village demanding that young men come with them to be conscripted into the Emperor's army.  As it happened the farmer's son was deemed unfit because of his broken leg.  "What very good fortune you have!!" the villagers exclaimed as their own young sons were marched away. "You must be very happy." "Who knows? We shall see!", replied the old farmer as he headed off to work his field alone.
As time went on the broken leg healed but the son was left with a slight limp. Again the neighbors came to pay their condolences. "Oh what bad luck. Too bad for you"!  But the old farmer simply replied; "Who knows? We shall see."

As it turned out the other young village boys had died in the war and the old farmer and his son were the only able bodied men capable of working the village lands. The old farmer became wealthy and was very generous to the villagers. They said: "Oh how fortunate we are, you must be very happy", to which the old farmer replied, "Who knows? We shall see!" 
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I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:43 am

As a father and a husband I can tell you that suicide is the worst of all possible options. Please avail yourself of the hotline Cooran provided and you can PM me if you just need to talk. May you be free from grief and pain! :heart:
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Dan74 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:54 am

Many of us have thoughts like these, in the difficult times.

Please consider how it would impact your children and your wife emotionally if you did that.

If you've messed up and you realize it now, this is the chance to work hard and set it right. Sometimes we need help to do that. Now may be just such a time and like others have said, it is wise to ask for help when help is needed.

To quit is the easiest of all. I doubt it would improve anything. Suicide tends to mess up everyone around the person who does it. It is usually a selfish and cruel act - ask any of the family of suicides. Instead think of a small thing you can do better. Something realistic. Write it down. The next day, do it. Think of another thing. This is how a change often starts - from small steps.

Nothing is set in stone. This situation will also change. You too have got what it takes to turn it around. If you really want to.
May you be well!!!
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:45 am

cooran wrote:Hello thaibebop,

Your current view of how things are is most likely distorted. Things do not stay the same, everything changes - so the bad times will pass and you WILL be happy again. Do not leave your wife and children alone. Children need a father their whole life long.

Please call and talk toll-free to someone here:
For Suicide Prevention & Emotional Crisis - When You Feel You Can't Go On
http://suicidehotlines.com/

From a buddhist perspective, suicide by ordinary unenlightened worldlings is likely to have very bad rebirth results.

Here is a previous thread:
Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6087&start=0

with metta and karuna,
Chris

Thank you. Doesn't the suicide hotline call the authorities. While I admit I might need someone to chat with, I don't need authorities getting involved.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:47 am

Hi Thaibebop,

I actually heard Martin Seligman on the radio this morning being interviewed. He is an interesting guy. The last time I heard him being interviewed was a few years ago when he was starting a pilot program on wellbeing in the US Military to cut down on Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome and suicide in serving and returning service personnel. The program was so successful that it is being rolled out across the entire armed forces.
At the end of the interview he was asked about what is one tip to help someone who might be listening who is acutely depressed. Apart from seeking help via effective psychological therapies and pharmacology, he said that the one thing that will bring temporary relief to acute depression is to go and do something to help some one else. And I think there is a lot of wisdom in that. Dana or service done to others causes wholesome dhammas to arise.
Thaibebop, our thoughts are with you in your moments of darkness. Try to remember that your kids need you - they need their Dad. Get some assistance whether its via a crisis telephone counsellor and/or by seeking professional mental health intervention. And try Seligman's suggestion. Do some selfless act each day for the benefit and welfare of someone else.
Wishing you all the best,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:54 am

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:I am in a very vulnerable and morbid time, right now. So, I am not sure of my wording or thinking, but I know my family would be better off without me, however, I cannot live with out them. All my wife has too is go home and all of our money problems are solved. My kids have food, clothes, a home and they no longer have to depend on me. I am failing as a father and husband. If they leave, I can't handle that, so why not check out. In the end it would be better for all, less suffering for my wife and children.


I'm guessing your wife is Thai and you are saying that all your money problems would be solved if your family moves back to Thailand, is that correct?

Can you not move there with them?

I don't believe suicide is ever an answer to life's problems, perhaps with the exception of terminal illness to prevent unnecessary suffering, even if you think you are helping others.

I hope you find the courage to think this through and find a good solution.

Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:10 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Sometimes, we think we have done something very very wrong, but actually if we cool down and look the things from broader perspective, there is no something called right or wrong.

This reality doesn't have identity. This reality is free from any right and wrong idea. If we think this is right, that is just our mind thinking this is right. If we think this is wrong, this is also just our mind thinking this is wrong.

By knowing that right or wrong are from this mind, not from reality, what is the point to blame this and that?

People say some time your life is up, sometime your life is down. However, only deluded people think And see their life in that way.

Right from the start, there is already no up and no down. Just our perspective.

This human life is difficult to get, extremely difficult.

Please see this story. Hopefully it can give you some insight:

(There is nothing right or wrong, or joyful or suffering, just depend on how we look this reality)

One day in late summer, an old farmer was working in his field with his old sick horse. The farmer felt compassion for the horse and desired to lift its burden. So he left his horse loose to go the mountains and live out the rest of its life.

Soon after, neighbors from the nearby village visited, offering their condolences and said, "What a shame.  Now your only horse is gone.  How unfortunate you are!. You must be very sad. How will you live, work the land, and prosper?" The farmer replied: "Who knows? We shall see".

Two days later the old horse came back now rejuvenated after meandering in the mountainsides while eating the wild grasses. He came back with twelve new younger and healthy horses which followed the old horse into the corral.
Word got out in the village of the old farmer's good fortune and it wasn't long before people stopped by to congratulate the farmer on his good luck.  "How fortunate you are!" they exclaimed. You must be very happy!"  Again, the farmer softly said, "Who knows? We shall see."

At daybreak on the next morning, the farmer's only son set off to attempt to train the new wild horses, but the farmer's son was thrown to the ground and broke his leg.  One by one villagers arrived during the day to bemoan the farmer's latest misfortune.  "Oh, what a tragedy!  Your son won't be able to help you farm with a broken leg. You'll have to do all the work yourself, How will you survive? You must be very sad".  they said.  Calmly going about his usual business the farmer answered, "Who knows? We shall see"
Several days later a war broke out. The Emperor's men arrived in the village demanding that young men come with them to be conscripted into the Emperor's army.  As it happened the farmer's son was deemed unfit because of his broken leg.  "What very good fortune you have!!" the villagers exclaimed as their own young sons were marched away. "You must be very happy." "Who knows? We shall see!", replied the old farmer as he headed off to work his field alone.
As time went on the broken leg healed but the son was left with a slight limp. Again the neighbors came to pay their condolences. "Oh what bad luck. Too bad for you"!  But the old farmer simply replied; "Who knows? We shall see."

As it turned out the other young village boys had died in the war and the old farmer and his son were the only able bodied men capable of working the village lands. The old farmer became wealthy and was very generous to the villagers. They said: "Oh how fortunate we are, you must be very happy", to which the old farmer replied, "Who knows? We shall see!" 

Yes, a very wise story. Funny thing is I don't feel that what I have done, which is really just being inadequate, is all that bad. I struggled through college because I have learning disabilities I didn't know about, so it took me longer and I am now more in debt. I don't work the way my company wants me to for example. I don't see how what I do is all that bad, I am just slow and a little awkward, but it doesn't fit into the corporate culture in which I am trying to survive. So, I feel I just can't make the progress I need to help my family because I am just unfitted for this life. I am at a dead end I feel. What the hell do I do. When I know that my wife can walk away with the girls and live a different and better life, in other words, the only reason they are going through what they are is because of me, it seems horribly selfish of me to keep them here.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:11 am

Khalil Bodhi wrote:As a father and a husband I can tell you that suicide is the worst of all possible options. Please avail yourself of the hotline Cooran provided and you can PM me if you just need to talk. May you be free from grief and pain! :heart:

Thank you, I just might. Maybe talking about this with someone would help. I do feel trapped in my own head.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am

Dan74 wrote:Many of us have thoughts like these, in the difficult times.

Please consider how it would impact your children and your wife emotionally if you did that.

If you've messed up and you realize it now, this is the chance to work hard and set it right. Sometimes we need help to do that. Now may be just such a time and like others have said, it is wise to ask for help when help is needed.

To quit is the easiest of all. I doubt it would improve anything. Suicide tends to mess up everyone around the person who does it. It is usually a selfish and cruel act - ask any of the family of suicides. Instead think of a small thing you can do better. Something realistic. Write it down. The next day, do it. Think of another thing. This is how a change often starts - from small steps.

Nothing is set in stone. This situation will also change. You too have got what it takes to turn it around. If you really want to.
May you be well!!!

That is not a bad idea. Just find one thing. I like this. I have to try to find a way to remember though. I forget things all the time, part of my ADHD. Carry a note with me maybe?
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