A Logical Sacrifice?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Ben »

Hi Thaibebop,

I actually heard Martin Seligman on the radio this morning being interviewed. He is an interesting guy. The last time I heard him being interviewed was a few years ago when he was starting a pilot program on wellbeing in the US Military to cut down on Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome and suicide in serving and returning service personnel. The program was so successful that it is being rolled out across the entire armed forces.
At the end of the interview he was asked about what is one tip to help someone who might be listening who is acutely depressed. Apart from seeking help via effective psychological therapies and pharmacology, he said that the one thing that will bring temporary relief to acute depression is to go and do something to help some one else. And I think there is a lot of wisdom in that. Dana or service done to others causes wholesome dhammas to arise.
Thaibebop, our thoughts are with you in your moments of darkness. Try to remember that your kids need you - they need their Dad. Get some assistance whether its via a crisis telephone counsellor and/or by seeking professional mental health intervention. And try Seligman's suggestion. Do some selfless act each day for the benefit and welfare of someone else.
Wishing you all the best,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:I am in a very vulnerable and morbid time, right now. So, I am not sure of my wording or thinking, but I know my family would be better off without me, however, I cannot live with out them. All my wife has too is go home and all of our money problems are solved. My kids have food, clothes, a home and they no longer have to depend on me. I am failing as a father and husband. If they leave, I can't handle that, so why not check out. In the end it would be better for all, less suffering for my wife and children.
I'm guessing your wife is Thai and you are saying that all your money problems would be solved if your family moves back to Thailand, is that correct?

Can you not move there with them?

I don't believe suicide is ever an answer to life's problems, perhaps with the exception of terminal illness to prevent unnecessary suffering, even if you think you are helping others.

I hope you find the courage to think this through and find a good solution.
Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

DarwidHalim wrote:Sometimes, we think we have done something very very wrong, but actually if we cool down and look the things from broader perspective, there is no something called right or wrong.

This reality doesn't have identity. This reality is free from any right and wrong idea. If we think this is right, that is just our mind thinking this is right. If we think this is wrong, this is also just our mind thinking this is wrong.

By knowing that right or wrong are from this mind, not from reality, what is the point to blame this and that?

People say some time your life is up, sometime your life is down. However, only deluded people think And see their life in that way.

Right from the start, there is already no up and no down. Just our perspective.

This human life is difficult to get, extremely difficult.

Please see this story. Hopefully it can give you some insight:

(There is nothing right or wrong, or joyful or suffering, just depend on how we look this reality)

One day in late summer, an old farmer was working in his field with his old sick horse. The farmer felt compassion for the horse and desired to lift its burden. So he left his horse loose to go the mountains and live out the rest of its life.

Soon after, neighbors from the nearby village visited, offering their condolences and said, "What a shame.  Now your only horse is gone.  How unfortunate you are!. You must be very sad. How will you live, work the land, and prosper?" The farmer replied: "Who knows? We shall see".

Two days later the old horse came back now rejuvenated after meandering in the mountainsides while eating the wild grasses. He came back with twelve new younger and healthy horses which followed the old horse into the corral.
Word got out in the village of the old farmer's good fortune and it wasn't long before people stopped by to congratulate the farmer on his good luck.  "How fortunate you are!" they exclaimed. You must be very happy!"  Again, the farmer softly said, "Who knows? We shall see."

At daybreak on the next morning, the farmer's only son set off to attempt to train the new wild horses, but the farmer's son was thrown to the ground and broke his leg.  One by one villagers arrived during the day to bemoan the farmer's latest misfortune.  "Oh, what a tragedy!  Your son won't be able to help you farm with a broken leg. You'll have to do all the work yourself, How will you survive? You must be very sad".  they said.  Calmly going about his usual business the farmer answered, "Who knows? We shall see"
Several days later a war broke out. The Emperor's men arrived in the village demanding that young men come with them to be conscripted into the Emperor's army.  As it happened the farmer's son was deemed unfit because of his broken leg.  "What very good fortune you have!!" the villagers exclaimed as their own young sons were marched away. "You must be very happy." "Who knows? We shall see!", replied the old farmer as he headed off to work his field alone.
As time went on the broken leg healed but the son was left with a slight limp. Again the neighbors came to pay their condolences. "Oh what bad luck. Too bad for you"!  But the old farmer simply replied; "Who knows? We shall see."

As it turned out the other young village boys had died in the war and the old farmer and his son were the only able bodied men capable of working the village lands. The old farmer became wealthy and was very generous to the villagers. They said: "Oh how fortunate we are, you must be very happy", to which the old farmer replied, "Who knows? We shall see!" 
Yes, a very wise story. Funny thing is I don't feel that what I have done, which is really just being inadequate, is all that bad. I struggled through college because I have learning disabilities I didn't know about, so it took me longer and I am now more in debt. I don't work the way my company wants me to for example. I don't see how what I do is all that bad, I am just slow and a little awkward, but it doesn't fit into the corporate culture in which I am trying to survive. So, I feel I just can't make the progress I need to help my family because I am just unfitted for this life. I am at a dead end I feel. What the hell do I do. When I know that my wife can walk away with the girls and live a different and better life, in other words, the only reason they are going through what they are is because of me, it seems horribly selfish of me to keep them here.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Khalil Bodhi wrote:As a father and a husband I can tell you that suicide is the worst of all possible options. Please avail yourself of the hotline Cooran provided and you can PM me if you just need to talk. May you be free from grief and pain! :heart:
Thank you, I just might. Maybe talking about this with someone would help. I do feel trapped in my own head.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Dan74 wrote:Many of us have thoughts like these, in the difficult times.

Please consider how it would impact your children and your wife emotionally if you did that.

If you've messed up and you realize it now, this is the chance to work hard and set it right. Sometimes we need help to do that. Now may be just such a time and like others have said, it is wise to ask for help when help is needed.

To quit is the easiest of all. I doubt it would improve anything. Suicide tends to mess up everyone around the person who does it. It is usually a selfish and cruel act - ask any of the family of suicides. Instead think of a small thing you can do better. Something realistic. Write it down. The next day, do it. Think of another thing. This is how a change often starts - from small steps.

Nothing is set in stone. This situation will also change. You too have got what it takes to turn it around. If you really want to.
May you be well!!!
That is not a bad idea. Just find one thing. I like this. I have to try to find a way to remember though. I forget things all the time, part of my ADHD. Carry a note with me maybe?
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Cittasanto »

There are many charitable organisations around who keep things confidential, a quick search of google will help find a suitable service provider!

but confidential in any medical situation including help lines does only go so far, if they felt you were in immediate risk of either hurting yourself or another they may contact the appropriate people to keep you or others out of harms way, and get you quick assistance! their duty is to help, not let things happen which could be avoided.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Cittasanto »

Thaibebop wrote: When I know that my wife can walk away with the girls and live a different and better life, in other words, the only reason they are going through what they are is because of me, it seems horribly selfish of me to keep them here.
have you talked to your wife?

I am sure they stay with you for very good reasons.

love is not always a easy thing, especially when the one we love is beating themselves up.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
santa100
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by santa100 »

"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...
hermitwin
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by hermitwin »

To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

santa100 wrote:"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...
I am waiting to get into grad school next year, which carries it's own set of problems, but is a career path.
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Goofaholix
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Goofaholix »

Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Jason
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

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Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Jason wrote:So the answer may be a tentative yes.
A tentative 'yes' in some very specific circumstances for people able to make the decision with total equanimity.
Very few rules are 100.00% applicable but the rule against suicide seems to be about 99.99% applicable, and for very good reasons.

:namaste:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

hermitwin wrote:To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.
If I have to leave them I feel that I am not mentally strong enough to live without them, therefore, why bother living. That is/was my thinking.
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