A Logical Sacrifice?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:24 am

There are many charitable organisations around who keep things confidential, a quick search of google will help find a suitable service provider!

but confidential in any medical situation including help lines does only go so far, if they felt you were in immediate risk of either hurting yourself or another they may contact the appropriate people to keep you or others out of harms way, and get you quick assistance! their duty is to help, not let things happen which could be avoided.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:29 am

Thaibebop wrote: When I know that my wife can walk away with the girls and live a different and better life, in other words, the only reason they are going through what they are is because of me, it seems horribly selfish of me to keep them here.

have you talked to your wife?

I am sure they stay with you for very good reasons.

love is not always a easy thing, especially when the one we love is beating themselves up.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby santa100 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:46 pm

"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby hermitwin » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:20 pm

To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:17 pm

santa100 wrote:"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...

I am waiting to get into grad school next year, which carries it's own set of problems, but is a career path.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.


Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.
"Whenever we feel that we are definitely right, so much so that we refuse to open up to anything or anybody else, right there we are wrong. It becomes wrong view. When suffering arises, where does it arise from? The cause is wrong view, the fruit of that being suffering. If it was right view it wouldn't cause suffering." - Ajahn Chah
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Jason » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:07 am

Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.


Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:

    A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.

So the answer may be a tentative yes.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:45 am

Jason wrote:So the answer may be a tentative yes.

A tentative 'yes' in some very specific circumstances for people able to make the decision with total equanimity.
Very few rules are 100.00% applicable but the rule against suicide seems to be about 99.99% applicable, and for very good reasons.

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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:46 am

Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.


Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:

    A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.

So the answer may be a tentative yes.

So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:47 am

hermitwin wrote:To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.

If I have to leave them I feel that I am not mentally strong enough to live without them, therefore, why bother living. That is/was my thinking.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:48 am

Thaibebop wrote:
Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.


Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:

    A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.

So the answer may be a tentative yes.

So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?

Yes.
:namaste:
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:50 am

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.


Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.

You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:51 am

Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:

    A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.

So the answer may be a tentative yes.[/quote]
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?[/quote]
Yes.
:namaste:
Kim[/quote]
It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:07 am

Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.


Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment
"Whenever we feel that we are definitely right, so much so that we refuse to open up to anything or anybody else, right there we are wrong. It becomes wrong view. When suffering arises, where does it arise from? The cause is wrong view, the fruit of that being suffering. If it was right view it wouldn't cause suffering." - Ajahn Chah
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:44 am

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.


Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment

I believe they have a temple that they are donors of. The amulet I wear was given to my wife's family when her grandmother died by the temple they always went to.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Ferox » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:54 am

I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and not better, worse, or equal to any of them.

I agree with others in that people always need their parents in their lives if it is possible, and even if your family never wanted to see you again, is that a real reason to end your life thinking logically? I do not want to make any judgements but It seems to me that you are coming through this post in an emotional manner, which is understandable due to your situation. if you truelly thought about it logically or developed insight regarding it, would it really be skillful or make much sense to end your life?

Ajahn Brahm talks about looking at every situation saying " good, bad, who knows"... you don't know how life will turn out.. and if all this buddhism isn't helping... watch this video... it might help :) - http://youtu.be/qaA_fSYfmTQ this great scene from the movie cast away in which tom hanks talks about how he had no control and couldn't even kill himself.. but he knew to keep living, because tomorrow the sun will rise, you never know what the tide will bring in.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:30 am

Thaibebop wrote:So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Kim wrote:Yes.
:namaste:
Kim

It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.

As I said, the rule against suicide has *very* few exceptions. It is nearly always a second-best, third-best ... tenth-best choice. There is nearly always a better way, even if it demands more courage or patience.
The monks who burn themselves in protest are not acting according to dhamma (or dharma - the Mahayana has the same prohibition) and shouldn't be taken as role models by anyone.

On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.

:goodpost:

:namaste:
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and not better, worse, or equal to any of them.

I agree with others in that people always need their parents in their lives if it is possible, and even if your family never wanted to see you again, is that a real reason to end your life thinking logically? I do not want to make any judgements but It seems to me that you are coming through this post in an emotional manner, which is understandable due to your situation. if you truelly thought about it logically or developed insight regarding it, would it really be skillful or make much sense to end your life?

Ajahn Brahm talks about looking at every situation saying " good, bad, who knows"... you don't know how life will turn out.. and if all this buddhism isn't helping... watch this video... it might help :) - http://youtu.be/qaA_fSYfmTQ this great scene from the movie cast away in which tom hanks talks about how he had no control and couldn't even kill himself.. but he knew to keep living, because tomorrow the sun will rise, you never know what the tide will bring in.

Thank you for sharing that scene. After some time had passed I am looking at my post now with a different eye, and I am a little embarrassed. I believe there was more emotion behind this than I thought. Although, it makes it clear to me that there has been a glaring delusion that I have not addressed and it is affecting my health. So, good has come out of my moment of 'panic'. Also, watching that scene reminded me of a friend of mine from years ago. Before Rye's syndrome was common medical knowledge he gave his youngest son aspirin when he had a fever, it resulted in his death. My friend blamed himself of course, and want to kill myself as punishment. However, he told me that he had two other sons to raise, and he was 'too damn curious'. He had to know what happened next. I am slightly ashamed to have forgotten his words, thank you for reminding me. :anjali:
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Thaibebop » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:41 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Kim wrote:Yes.
:namaste:
Kim

It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.

As I said, the rule against suicide has *very* few exceptions. It is nearly always a second-best, third-best ... tenth-best choice. There is nearly always a better way, even if it demands more courage or patience.
The monks who burn themselves in protest are not acting according to dhamma (or dharma - the Mahayana has the same prohibition) and shouldn't be taken as role models by anyone.

On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.

:goodpost:

:namaste:
Kim

Yes, those words struck a cord with me as well.
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Postby Ferox » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:42 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.

:goodpost:

:namaste:
Kim


tsk tsk changing my point lol.. I was trying to stick with the whole three conceits thing... " i am better" is a conceit, " I am worse" is a conceit" , " I am equal to" is a conceit.... no judgment of any kind on yourself or others, just a being among beings and developing equanimity. Thank you for the compliment either way though :)

[The Blessed One said:]

"Equal I am, or better, of less degree":
All such idle fancies lead to strife,
Who's unmoved by all these three conceits
Such vain distinctions leaves unmade.[17]
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
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