Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
marc108
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by marc108 »

bodom wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:One thing I've not heard Ven Thanissaro discuss in detail is walking meditation. Are there any talks/writings where he discusses that?


Mindfulness: Walking Meditation: Stillness In Motion
http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/6068.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
I believe that this is the same talk on paper:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#walking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Bodom and Marc,

That was a nice accompaniment to mowing the lawn...

As he says in the talk, with walking it's easier to see certain types of movements of the mind because you are making grosser decisions than when sitting:
The other reason why it's important to develop this ability to stay centered in the midst of activity, is that while you're doing walking meditation, you begin to observe how the mind slips out. It's often the case that you gain insight into the movements of the mind a lot more easily while you're walking than while you're sitting, because when you're sitting, everything is supposed to be totally still. You don't have to pay attention to anything else at all. You can clamp down on everything and get very, very centered, very, very still. But while you're walking, you still have to watch; you still have to move; there are decisions to be made even in the simple matter of walking. Where you're going to place your eyes, where you're going to step, noticing how close you are to the end of the path: simple things, but they're movements of the mind. And when the mind moves that way, it's easy for other intentions to sneak into the movement to divert it to their own ends. If you're not careful, they'll pull you away. But if you get used to looking for them, you gain a sense of how the mind tends to flow out.
:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
farmer wrote:Tilt is asking a good, specific question and getting only vague answers. . . .
Thanks. I appreciate your catching what I was asking and I appreciate even more the time you took for your response. It was helpful.
Hi Tilt,
Just listen to any of Thanissaro's guided meditations available all over the internet. He gives detailed specifics in all his guided meditations that address your inquiry.

For instance:

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/300.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/11013.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/11004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/111228_R ... Breath.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or, even more specifically, see:

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/091102%2 ... %20Day.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/111225_S ... Breath.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Breath: A Vehicle for Liberation found at
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/16/talk/1843/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Breathe Meditation Series
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/179/talk/11023/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exploring The Breath
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/179/talk/11026/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

good-will
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
farmer wrote:Tilt is asking a good, specific question and getting only vague answers. . . .
Thanks. I appreciate your catching what I was asking and I appreciate even more the time you took for your response. It was helpful.
Hi Tilt,
Just listen to any of Thanissaro's guided meditations available all over the internet. He gives detailed specifics in all his guided meditations that address your inquiry.

For instance:. . . .
Thanks. I'll listen to probably not all of them, but three or so should do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

Cool, Tilt.
:anjali:
Night, night.
Daniel
squarepeg
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:58 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by squarepeg »

greetings,

I found this essay helpfull, i also find it relevent to the aim of the OP.

De-perception "After all, you're not meditating to get to the breath. You're meditating to understand the processes leading to suffering so that you can put an end to them. The way you relate to your perceptions is part of these processes, so that's what you want to see. You have to treat your experience of the breath, not as an end in itself, but as a tool for understanding the role of perception in creating suffering and stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ption.html

Thanks everyone for this thread, i found it very helpfull.

sp
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.

Re: ENERGY. The notion of the breath as energy is extremely optimistic. When scientists started thinking in terms of energy and not just "matter", the scientific world bloomed with new discoveries. As with the breath. When we think of it as energy, we are adopting a realistic attitude about breathing, and the discoveries start to blossom.
Goodwill
Daniel
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.
So, if I hold my breath I have attained 4th jhana? Is breath voluntary? Well, yes and no, but I would suggest if one thinks the answer is only yes, then spend a few minutes under water without any breathing apparatus.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by Kenshou »

I find the literal interpretation of that to be a bit silly.

However, what can happen which is not so deadly or brain-damaging, is that the breath becomes so calm that it is effectively unnoticeable.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

Kenshou wrote:I find the literal interpretation of that to be a bit silly.

However, what can happen which is not so deadly or brain-damaging, is that the breath becomes so calm that it is effectively unnoticeable.
Yes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claims that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.
tiltbillings wrote:So, if I hold my breath I have attained 4th jhana?


Greetings Tilt,

That does not follow. Stilling is not holding. We also breathe (oxygenate) through our skin, so it's not absolute deprivation.
tiltbillings wrote:Is breath voluntary? Well, yes and no, but I would suggest if one thinks the answer is only yes, then spend a few minutes under water without any breathing apparatus.
You've missed the point. Not under water--under analysis; that is, while developing the seven factors of awakening.

It's not about thinking "the answer" is only yes; you investigate, contemplate, and experience your perceptions of your breath's voluntariness/involuntariness. In other words, it involves letting go (16th "step" of ānāpānasati) of your belief that breathing is involuntary and examining the results of that letting go. This contextualizes breathing in terms of sankhāra and cetanā. It asks how, with as much precision as possible, is my breathing itself a fabrication and intentional?

Try it out.

Goodwill
Daniel
User avatar
marc108
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by marc108 »

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.
So, if I hold my breath I have attained 4th jhana? Is breath voluntary? Well, yes and no, but I would suggest if one thinks the answer is only yes, then spend a few minutes under water without any breathing apparatus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9D-biQM3ag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by Polar Bear »

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.
Goodwill
Daniel
i don't think cessation is the word you are looking for


"I thought: 'Suppose that I, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, were to beat down, constrain, & crush my mind with my awareness.' So, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, & crush him, in the same way I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. As I did so, sweat poured from my armpits. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, just as if a strong man were tightening a turban made of tough leather straps around my head... Extreme forces carved up my stomach cavity, just as if a butcher or his apprentice were to carve up the stomach cavity of an ox... There was an extreme burning in my body, just as if two strong men, grabbing a weaker man by the arms, were to roast & broil him over a pit of hot embers. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to take only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup.' So I took only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup. My body became extremely emaciated. Simply from my eating so little, my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems... My backside became like a camel's hoof... My spine stood out like a string of beads... My ribs jutted out like the jutting rafters of an old, run-down barn... The gleam of my eyes appeared to be sunk deep in my eye sockets like the gleam of water deep in a well... My scalp shriveled & withered like a green bitter gourd, shriveled & withered in the heat & the wind... The skin of my belly became so stuck to my spine that when I thought of touching my belly, I grabbed hold of my spine as well; and when I thought of touching my spine, I grabbed hold of the skin of my belly as well... If I urinated or defecated, I fell over on my face right there... Simply from my eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair — rotted at its roots — fell from my body as I rubbed, simply from eating so little.

"People on seeing me would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is black.' Other people would say, 'Gotama the contemplative isn't black, he's brown.' Others would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is neither black nor brown, he's golden-skinned.' So much had the clear, bright color of my skin deteriorated, simply from eating so little.

"I thought: 'Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.'

"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


not breathing is a practice of the Jains and it leads to death eventually
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
ignobleone
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by ignobleone »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.
Goodwill
Daniel
i don't think cessation is the word you are looking for
As someone has said in this thread: bodily fabrication ceases in the fourth jhana. That's why the claim makes sense.
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by Polar Bear »

I'm rather skeptical of the claim that humans can slow down their metabolism to the point where they don't even breathe anymore, but whatever. I suppose I could be wrong.
Last edited by Polar Bear on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Post Reply