Hi Zom,
Quote: "Because this was a self-view (that is - Wrong View).
I cannot really tell what you mean by this, it is too short a remark.
We all know that the arahant has eliminated the view of self, and yet he
is called a person, not just in this Sutta but elsewhere, for example the
eight noble persons. Why the debate about this Sutta?
If you mean that the Personalists regarded this "person" as a self, then I
would not agree with you. They applied the term to the arahant who has
eliminated the view of self, as we find also in the Sutta Pitaka.
The disputes between the Schools was over the meaning of the term puggala.
The puggala is closer to the conceit "I am" than to the "self".
Regards, Vincent.
The Personalists.
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Re: The Personalists.
The notion ‘I am’ (asmimāna) is synonymous with the viewpoint of self (attato samanupassati). Both refer to the presumption of a substantial support of the khandhas, and both point directly to the ontology of ātman in the Upaniṣads.vinasp wrote:The puggala is closer to the conceit "I am" than to the "self".
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Re: The Personalists.
Hi ancientbuddhism,
And yet, there are some passages which say that view of self (sakkaya-ditthi)
is removed first, and the conceit "I am" only later.
See, for example, SN 22.89 - Khemaka.
Also the explanation of the "four pairs of persons" by reference to the
fetters which have been removed at each stage, although this is somewhat
later, as no such explanation is found in the Sutta Pitaka.
It could be that sakkaya-ditthi depends on the conceit "I am". So if this
conceit is removed, then so is sakkaya-ditthi. But it may be possible to
remove sakkaya-ditthi and yet still have the conceit "I am", which requires
further work to remove.
There may be a "middle strata" of discourses which assumes that the two
are removed together, and a "later strata" which sees their removal as
possible in two stages.
Regards, Vincent.
And yet, there are some passages which say that view of self (sakkaya-ditthi)
is removed first, and the conceit "I am" only later.
See, for example, SN 22.89 - Khemaka.
Also the explanation of the "four pairs of persons" by reference to the
fetters which have been removed at each stage, although this is somewhat
later, as no such explanation is found in the Sutta Pitaka.
It could be that sakkaya-ditthi depends on the conceit "I am". So if this
conceit is removed, then so is sakkaya-ditthi. But it may be possible to
remove sakkaya-ditthi and yet still have the conceit "I am", which requires
further work to remove.
There may be a "middle strata" of discourses which assumes that the two
are removed together, and a "later strata" which sees their removal as
possible in two stages.
Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Personalists.
This was just added to our Early Buddhism resources shelf:
The Literature of the Personalists of Early Buddhism by Bhikshu Thích Thién Châu
The Literature of the Personalists of Early Buddhism by Bhikshu Thích Thién Châu
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: The Personalists.
Hi ancientbuddhism,
While reading what Conze has to say about the Personalists, I found this
interesting remark:
"It was clearly a mistake of lesser minds to deny categorically
that the self exists. As the Personalists pointed out, it had
been said that 'to say that the self does not exist, in truth
and reality (satyatah sthititah), is a wrong view'". (33)
Note 33 reads: AK ix 270
AK is the Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandhu, [ 4th century C.E.]
[ Buddhist Thought in India, by Edward conze, London, 1983, page 130 ]
What do you make of this remark by Conze?
Do you know where the quotation comes from - is it from Nagarjuna perhaps?
Regards, Vincent.
While reading what Conze has to say about the Personalists, I found this
interesting remark:
"It was clearly a mistake of lesser minds to deny categorically
that the self exists. As the Personalists pointed out, it had
been said that 'to say that the self does not exist, in truth
and reality (satyatah sthititah), is a wrong view'". (33)
Note 33 reads: AK ix 270
AK is the Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandhu, [ 4th century C.E.]
[ Buddhist Thought in India, by Edward conze, London, 1983, page 130 ]
What do you make of this remark by Conze?
Do you know where the quotation comes from - is it from Nagarjuna perhaps?
Regards, Vincent.
Re: The Personalists.
Paradoxically, I think personalism came about during an intellectual time in Buddhism and was thought by it's proponents to be a doctrine to distance Buddhism from the various Abhdihammas of the day and return it to a state before such things, in doing so, however, they introduced their own doctrine to debate the abhidhammikas.
Kevin
Kevin
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Re: The Personalists.
With reference to Conze's remark and what follows it on the same page:vinasp wrote:Hi ancientbuddhism,
While reading what Conze has to say about the Personalists, I found this
interesting remark:
"It was clearly a mistake of lesser minds to deny categorically
that the self exists. As the Personalists pointed out, it had
been said that 'to say that the self does not exist, in truth
and reality (satyatah sthititah), is a wrong view'". (33)
Note 33 reads: AK ix 270
AK is the Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandhu, [ 4th century C.E.]
[ Buddhist Thought in India, by Edward conze, London, 1983, page 130 ]
What do you make of this remark by Conze?
Do you know where the quotation comes from - is it from Nagarjuna perhaps?
Regards, Vincent.
Buddhist Thought in India p. 130
- "It was clearly a mistake of lesser minds to deny categorically that the self exists. As the Personalists pointed out, it had been said that 'to say that the self does not exist, in truth and reality (satyataḥ sthititaḥ), is a wrong view'".(n.33: AK ix 270)
Although Châu referenced Vasubandhu’s Abhidharma-kośa with different conclusions:
- 2. The same ideas are expressed in another Pudgalavādin work, the Sns (Sāṃmitīyanikāyaśāstra): ‘The characteristics (hsiang, lakṣaṇa) of the self (ātman), etc are accepted through faith. As the Buddha said to the sectaries (tīrthika): «Although a Me exists, it is only a designation, it is not a reality. It is based on defiled aggregates (āsravaskandha) ». In seeing (impermanent) things which come and go, the Buddha calls that the self, (but) it is not a real self. As the Buddha said: « (The self) relies on compounded things (saṃskāra)». The term (of self) is derived from compounded things». That is why the Buddha speaks (of a self). Such is the explanation of the term self’ (Sns, 464b 5-10).
‘Being blinded by ignorance (avidyā) one considers the five aggregates (skandha) which are not the self as being the self. (It is like) an uncomprehending baby which sees the mother of others and calls her its mother. It is the same for those who call self the five aggregates which are not the self, Such is the teaching of the Buddha’ (Sns, 464b 12-16).
These ideas are confirmed by an extract by Vasubandhu in the Abhidharma-kośa devoted to the argument in defense of the Vātsīputrīyas when they are attacked over the concept of attachment to the Me and Mine and affection for the Me and Mine:
‘When one recognises a self in what is not a self, as do the sectaries, one feels affection for that supposed self; however, when one sees the self in the ineffable pudgala, as do the Buddhas, no affection is aroused regarding the self’(n.534: Kośa IX, p.273).
Thus, the Pudgalavādins had understood the fundamental teachings of the Buddha, particularly the doctrine of insubstantiality which vigorously rejects belief in a substantial, permanent self (ātman). Indeed, the Buddha is specifically called ‘the master of the doctrine of insubstantiality’ (anātmavādī). Only the doctrine of insubstantiality, not being found in other systems of Indian thought, constitutes the fundamental teaching of the Buddha. Consequently, without a correct understanding of this doctrinal notion, it is impossible to have knowledge and practice in conformity with Buddhism.
[bold emphasis mine]
– The Literature of the Personalists of Early Buddhism – p.136
- Every statement must be viewed concretely, in the context of the discussion, and in each case one must consider what is asked, what are the needs of the questioner and his mental level, what is liable to be misunderstood, etc. Everywhere the compassionate intention of the Buddha must be taken into account. For the Buddha was out to help, not to make theories.
- One must distinguish between a specific negation, stating that the self cannot be identified with a clearly defined range of items, such as the skandhas, and a general negation, which says that 'the self does not exist anywhere'.
- The latter is a universal theoretical proposition, (n.34: vidhi, Kamalaśīla RO viii, p. 91. ibid. p. 93: The Mīmāṃsa distinguished vidhi from anuvāda, e.g. ‘form in not self’ is said with reference to a specific heresy, and is not a proposition about the existence of non existence of an ātman.) which is of no use in any context except that of philosophical disputation, answers no worthwhile questions, removes no misunderstanding, and does nothing to further salvation.
- The non-apprehension of a self - essential to a religious life on Buddhist lines - is greatly cheapened when it is turned into a philosophical statement proclaiming that the self does not exist. Candrakīrti has well shown (n.35: Prqas. Xviii 354-8.) that under certain circumstances it may be useful to teach that there is a self, (n.36: e.g. against the materialists, who denied the continuity of karman and its results, and thereby took away the philosophical basis of morality.) under others that there is none, under others again that there is neither a self nor a not-self. But all these statements are circumscribed by their context, and outside it they lose their significance. In the context of salvational practices an absolute 'is' or 'is not' is useless and misleading. The Buddha, as a matter of fact, in a famous dialogue with Vatsagotra had refused to commit himself on the question of the existence of the self.(n.37: SN iv 400. Samyukta 34, 15. cf. AK ix 264-6.)
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
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Re: The Personalists.
I just posted this on our Early Buddhism Resources page, which may be of interest in this discussion.
Pudgalavāda Buddhism: The Reality of the Indeterminate Self – Leonard C.D.C. Peiestley
From the Introduction p.8:
Pudgalavāda Buddhism: The Reality of the Indeterminate Self – Leonard C.D.C. Peiestley
From the Introduction p.8:
- “My intention, then, is to try to move toward a clearer understanding of the person as conceived by the Pudgalavādins. This study is accordingly quite limited in scope. For the most part, it deals only with materials bearing directly on the question of the pudgala. It refers to other light on this central question. It is thus not meant to be a survey of the Pudgalavāda; for that one should consult the work of Thích Thiên Châu.”
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
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A Handful of Leaves