A Logical Sacrifice?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Thaibebop wrote:
Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Yes.
:namaste:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.
You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.[/quote]
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?[/quote]
Yes.
:namaste:
Kim[/quote]
It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.
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Goofaholix
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Goofaholix »

Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment
I believe they have a temple that they are donors of. The amulet I wear was given to my wife's family when her grandmother died by the temple they always went to.
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Ferox
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Ferox »

I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and not better, worse, or equal to any of them.

I agree with others in that people always need their parents in their lives if it is possible, and even if your family never wanted to see you again, is that a real reason to end your life thinking logically? I do not want to make any judgements but It seems to me that you are coming through this post in an emotional manner, which is understandable due to your situation. if you truelly thought about it logically or developed insight regarding it, would it really be skillful or make much sense to end your life?

Ajahn Brahm talks about looking at every situation saying " good, bad, who knows"... you don't know how life will turn out.. and if all this buddhism isn't helping... watch this video... it might help :) - http://youtu.be/qaA_fSYfmTQ this great scene from the movie cast away in which tom hanks talks about how he had no control and couldn't even kill himself.. but he knew to keep living, because tomorrow the sun will rise, you never know what the tide will bring in.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Thaibebop wrote: So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Kim wrote:Yes.
:namaste:
Kim
It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.
As I said, the rule against suicide has *very* few exceptions. It is nearly always a second-best, third-best ... tenth-best choice. There is nearly always a better way, even if it demands more courage or patience.
The monks who burn themselves in protest are not acting according to dhamma (or dharma - the Mahayana has the same prohibition) and shouldn't be taken as role models by anyone.

On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.
:goodpost:

:namaste:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and not better, worse, or equal to any of them.

I agree with others in that people always need their parents in their lives if it is possible, and even if your family never wanted to see you again, is that a real reason to end your life thinking logically? I do not want to make any judgements but It seems to me that you are coming through this post in an emotional manner, which is understandable due to your situation. if you truelly thought about it logically or developed insight regarding it, would it really be skillful or make much sense to end your life?

Ajahn Brahm talks about looking at every situation saying " good, bad, who knows"... you don't know how life will turn out.. and if all this buddhism isn't helping... watch this video... it might help :) - http://youtu.be/qaA_fSYfmTQ this great scene from the movie cast away in which tom hanks talks about how he had no control and couldn't even kill himself.. but he knew to keep living, because tomorrow the sun will rise, you never know what the tide will bring in.
Thank you for sharing that scene. After some time had passed I am looking at my post now with a different eye, and I am a little embarrassed. I believe there was more emotion behind this than I thought. Although, it makes it clear to me that there has been a glaring delusion that I have not addressed and it is affecting my health. So, good has come out of my moment of 'panic'. Also, watching that scene reminded me of a friend of mine from years ago. Before Rye's syndrome was common medical knowledge he gave his youngest son aspirin when he had a fever, it resulted in his death. My friend blamed himself of course, and want to kill myself as punishment. However, he told me that he had two other sons to raise, and he was 'too damn curious'. He had to know what happened next. I am slightly ashamed to have forgotten his words, thank you for reminding me. :anjali:
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thaibebop wrote: So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Kim wrote:Yes.
:namaste:
Kim
It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.
As I said, the rule against suicide has *very* few exceptions. It is nearly always a second-best, third-best ... tenth-best choice. There is nearly always a better way, even if it demands more courage or patience.
The monks who burn themselves in protest are not acting according to dhamma (or dharma - the Mahayana has the same prohibition) and shouldn't be taken as role models by anyone.

On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.
:goodpost:

:namaste:
Kim
Yes, those words struck a cord with me as well.
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Ferox
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Ferox »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thaibebop wrote: On another point ...
Ferox wrote:I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist or not, but if you are and you practice metta.. always remember that we practice metta on ourselves before all beings. Regardless of whether other human beings see value in you or not based on whatever criteria they wish, you are still a being amongst all beings in all the world systems and universes and ... equal to any of them.
:goodpost:

:namaste:
Kim
tsk tsk changing my point lol.. I was trying to stick with the whole three conceits thing... " i am better" is a conceit, " I am worse" is a conceit" , " I am equal to" is a conceit.... no judgment of any kind on yourself or others, just a being among beings and developing equanimity. Thank you for the compliment either way though :)

[The Blessed One said:]

"Equal I am, or better, of less degree":
All such idle fancies lead to strife,
Who's unmoved by all these three conceits
Such vain distinctions leaves unmade.[17]
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Sorry, Ferox - it went right over my head.
:embarassed:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

tsk tsk changing my point lol.. I was trying to stick with the whole three conceits thing... " i am better" is a conceit, " I am worse" is a conceit" , " I am equal to" is a conceit.... no judgment of any kind on yourself or others, just a being among beings and developing equanimity. Thank you for the compliment either way though :)

[The Blessed One said:]

"Equal I am, or better, of less degree":
All such idle fancies lead to strife,
Who's unmoved by all these three conceits
Such vain distinctions leaves unmade.[17][/quote]
This something I think many tend to forget. It seems we always strive not to think better of ourselves, but never look for the pitfall of looking down on ourselves. I admit that such a thing is hard for me. I have never given myself value, at least not the same value as most people around me have given themselves. I have always found that to be too ego driven a thing to do, that is assign value to myself.

Buddhism has not really cleared that up for me either. I feel it best to be egoless, and loving yourself seems ego driven and while I can see how not loving yourself, or hating yourself, is ego centered, it is not ego driven. So, a egoless mind alludes me as I can't love myself but feel that loving myself and just not liking myself are different animals of the same family, so why is an egoless nature so difficult to achieve. Wouldn't not liking yourself make it easier to become egoless?
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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Thaibebop wrote:
Ferox wrote:[The Blessed One said:]

"Equal I am, or better, of less degree":
All such idle fancies lead to strife,
Who's unmoved by all these three conceits
Such vain distinctions leaves unmade.[17]
This something I think many tend to forget. It seems we always strive not to think better of ourselves, but never look for the pitfall of looking down on ourselves. I admit that such a thing is hard for me. I have never given myself value, at least not the same value as most people around me have given themselves. I have always found that to be too ego driven a thing to do, that is assign value to myself.

Buddhism has not really cleared that up for me either. I feel it best to be egoless, and loving yourself seems ego driven and while I can see how not loving yourself, or hating yourself, is ego centered, it is not ego driven. So, a egoless mind alludes me as I can't love myself but feel that loving myself and just not liking myself are different animals of the same family, so why is an egoless nature so difficult to achieve. Wouldn't not liking yourself make it easier to become egoless?
Maybe one approach to it is the Brahmaviharas: compassion, loving kindness, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
"Love" as such is not used, and I'm not absolutely sure why not but I think it may be because it is (1) so broad and (2) so often selfish. So let's set it aside.
The Brahmaviharas are all relatively 'cool' emotions - not like, say, ecstasy or despair - so it may be easier to apply them to friends, learn to apply them to enemies, and remember to apply them to oneself without losing one's spiritual balance. They are all other-centred, too, which may make it easier for us to see ourselves just as we see others - which I think is a good way of reducing ego without the negativity of having to dislike or distrust ourselves.
How's that sounding so far?

:namaste:
Kim
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Dan74
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Dan74 »

I was taught that before one is truly ready to let go of the self ("egoless mind") one's got to develop a healthy functioning and well-adjusted self.

It seems that a lot of people have difficulty with the notion that cultivation proceeds in stages. Before worrying about jhanas and anatta, it's important to cultivate the fundamentals of sila, live responsibly, honestly, work hard, develop generosity and patience with yourself and others.

Otherwise we sort of have it backwards - start with egoless self and then the Dhamma becomes god-knows-what - escapism, a protective shell against all those unwanted things from the "outside",etc etc

Sorry about the rant, Thai, this may not even be relevant, but take it in the "if the shoe fits" spirit. You know I am a one-small-step-at-a-time sort of a guy, rather than plunging into egolessness, etc
_/|\_
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by appicchato »

Hi Thaibebop,

I am neither a husband, nor a father, but what comes to my mind is that you (if I were asked) pack up the family and book it to Thailand...family, being what it is here, would most definitely make your wife happier...no question...and you having a sheepskin would make finding work no problem, none...it could all work out great for you (and the family)...

Teaching English here isn't the greatest of occupations, but hey, your status with the family (extended as well) would soar (and there's always the possibility of other opportunities presenting themselves)...not to mention that all your bummer thoughts are just specultive discursive thought, and all the other negative, un-beneficial meanderings of our monkey minds...you've been around since E-Sangha days...put some of what you've learned to use friend...

Again, if I were asked, I'd say give it a shot...it could work out great...and Thailand is dyno...I could go on about all the advantages of you being married into (what you call) a well-to-do family...and the result could be the absolute opposite end of the spectrum of the thought of topping yourself...

Just some stuff off the top of my head, for whatever it's worth...I've been here over thirty years and will only leave kicking and screaming...and the American Mid-west?...please...

Hoping it gets better for you soon...
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