(The failure to) Go West

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Mike
you remind me of a 'story' which I have shared here before, I believe Ajahn Chah was inspecting his monks (sort of like a military line up) and a young Novice pointed out he looked a mess, Ajahn agreed and called him Ajahn from that day onward (although no other monk was expected too).
how true and if it was Ajahn Chah I don't know but it is a story I have heard at least two forest monks share in talks or in writing and this is the sort of think I think Retro is on about, it isn't so much the student teaching the Teacher a lesson but rather the student is on an equal footing to help the teacher at different times.

WM
Manapa

mikenz66 wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Our Theravada friends don't seem to be big on student-teacher contact though, so this may be a conversation for a very small audience...
I'm big on student-teacher contact...

However, as others indicate, there's not a guru relationship. I have learned from several teachers, partly for practical reasons (living in different places, monks coming and going...). I would disagree a little with Retro about the relationship, however. It's clear to me who the student is. I'm not going to be teaching much to someone who's been a monk for ten, twenty, thirty years... [Of course, I can sometimes be somewhat helpful to my fellow students, but that's a different issue.]

Metta
Mike
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
MMK23
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:38 pm

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by MMK23 »

I think the common understanding of the teacher-student relationship, or our modern orthodoxy, has probably been shaped a lot by the Protestant Buddhist trends in Sri Lanka and the lay-meditation movement of Burma, not to mention, particularly in the west, humanism, rationalism and capitalism. The confluence of these influences are the protestant themes of distrust in hierarchy, clergy, teacher-student relationships, scholarly erudition, etc. My personal view is - I think - actually that the Pali Canon places a lot of emphasis on hierarchy within the sangha, and the commentarial texts seem to operate on an assumption that our meditative practice is going to be quite constrained without the wisdom of the good friend.

:coffee:
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Dan74 »

From what I understand, in China during the Golden Age of the Tang dynasty, the various Buddhist schools (Chan, Tien-Tai, Hwa-Yen, Pure Land, Vinaya, etc) had not yet become sectarian and it was common for monks (and serious lay-people) to spend extended time in various temples and schools.

And in the Zen (Seon) tradition in Korea of today, monastics too would sometimes wonder and visit teachers other than their principle Dharma teacher. Probably after getting some solid grounding with him or her, first.

So, it is not an exclusive guru-disciple relationship. Nor is it with Tibetan Buddhists, I believe. They too often have more than one teacher. But there does seem to be a lot more formal ties and vows cementing the relationship than in Zen, which may be as deep, but a lot more informal.

As for being hierarchical, I guess this is more of a cultural/style thing than a Mahayana thing. Some teachers are very informal, others draw a clear line. Both have their pros and cons. And then there is a point when a student becomes an equal or even a master to his former teacher. There are many records of that in Zen lore and it is based purely on the level of insight. So it is not a fixed relationship by any means.

As for the point about meditation and Right View in general, I think a teacher can be extremely helpful and save an enormous amount of time (lifetimes?). I recall my first retreat when a whole bunch of clever nonsense was knocked out of me. :namaste:

Always more where that came from unfortunately! :meditate:

_/|\_
_/|\_
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by mikenz66 »

Dan74 wrote: As for the point about meditation and Right View in general, I think a teacher can be extremely helpful and save an enormous amount of time (lifetimes?). I recall my first retreat when a whole bunch of clever nonsense was knocked out of me.
Indeed, it's those sort of experiences that made me realise that I don't have anything to teach my teachers about Dhamma. Whatever I report, they've seen it all...

Of course I can help them with other stuff --- but not Dhamma.

The Ajahn Chah story is about worldly assistance and demystifying the relationship. It is not the teacher "learning" from the student.

Mike
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Mike,
The Ajahn Chah How to wear the robes is quite clear in the vinaya and Ajahn Chahs Monestaries have clear instructions on how to wear them, Etiquite is part of the vinaya and the story should be looked at in that light, Worldly assistance is not part of the monastic dress code which the story is about.

on one of my retreats the monk of ten years was asked something he did not know the answer of and another retreat participant did and asked if they could answer.

monks and teachers are people just like everyone else and wont know everything or be able to explain everything to do with Dhamma.

WM
Manapa
mikenz66 wrote:
Dan74 wrote: As for the point about meditation and Right View in general, I think a teacher can be extremely helpful and save an enormous amount of time (lifetimes?). I recall my first retreat when a whole bunch of clever nonsense was knocked out of me.
Indeed, it's those sort of experiences that made me realise that I don't have anything to teach my teachers about Dhamma. Whatever I report, they've seen it all...

Of course I can help them with other stuff --- but not Dhamma.

The Ajahn Chah story is about worldly assistance and demystifying the relationship. It is not the teacher "learning" from the student.

Mike
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Manapa,

Of course I don't mean that my teachers know every little detail, and I could certainly tell them if their robes were falling off, or remind them of teachings that they had overlooked, forgotten, or explain things to others that they are having trouble finding the words for.

My point is that such incidents don't necessarily indicate that there is a dialog among equals going on. In situations that I am familiar with they just indicate that there is some class participation, just like in any healthy teaching environment.

Metta
Mike
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Cittasanto »

hi Mike,
I think it is mainly the conventions we both accept which are the biggest issue in this dialogue between us, not in a bad way just our own experiences have led to differing conclusions to a degree.
I would agree that it isn't a dialogue among equals but rather the relationship has an ebb and flow the role changes and is on a more equal footing than many other traditions. there can be back chat (to an extent) without it being seen as disrespect, but this does depend on the teacher, no so much which school of Buddhism, although in my experience I have only come across this once in Theravada.


mikenz66 wrote:Hi Manapa,

Of course I don't mean that my teachers know every little detail, and I could certainly tell them if their robes were falling off, or remind them of teachings that they had overlooked, forgotten, or explain things to others that they are having trouble finding the words for.

My point is that such incidents don't necessarily indicate that there is a dialog among equals going on. In situations that I am familiar with they just indicate that there is some class participation, just like in any healthy teaching environment.

Metta
Mike
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Dan74 wrote:So, it is not an exclusive guru-disciple relationship. Nor is it with Tibetan Buddhists, I believe. They too often have more than one teacher.
:anjali:
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: (The failure to) Go West

Post by Aloka »

Dan74 wrote:So, it is not an exclusive guru-disciple relationship. Nor is it with Tibetan Buddhists, I believe. They too often have more than one teacher.
_/|\_
Yes, I'm a practitoner of Tibetan Buddhism and have 3 teachers from whom I receive one-to-one instruction.


:anjali:
Post Reply