SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by mikenz66 »

And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? ‘With birth as condition, aging-and-death [comes to be]’: whether there is an arising of Tathāgatas or no arising of Tathāgatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality.

Ṭhitā va sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.

Spk: That element (sā dhātu), the intrinsic nature of the conditions (paccayasabhāva), still persists; never is it the case that birth is not a condition for aging-and-death. By the next two terms too he indicates just the condition. For the dependently arisen phenomena stand because of the condition (paccayena hi paccayuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti); therefore the condition itself is called the stableness of the Dhamma (dhammaṭṭhitatā). The condition fixes (or determines) the dependent phenomena (paccayo dhamme niyameti); thus it is called the fixed course of the Dhamma (dhammaniyāmatā). Specific conditionality (idappaccayatā) is the set of specific conditions for aging-and-death, etc.

Spk-pṭ: Whether it is unpenetrated before and after the arising of Tathāgatas, or penetrated when they have arisen, that element still persists; it is not created by the Tathāgatas, but aging-and-death always occurs through birth as its condition. A Tathāgata simply discovers and proclaims this, but he does not invent it.

BB: At AN I 286,8-24
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
exactly the same statement is made about the three characteristics: “All formations are impermanent /suffering” and “All phenomena are nonself.” The two expressions, dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā, must thus have a meaning that is common to both dependent origination and the three characteristics, and it therefore seems unfitting to explain them here, as Spk does, in a way that is specifically tied to conditionality. Moreover, it is more likely that here dhamma means the principle or law-fulness that holds sway over phenomena, not the phenomena subject to that principle.


A Tathāgata awakens to this and breaks through to it.

BB: Abhisambujjhati abhisameti. The former verb, which is reserved for the Buddha’s enlightenment, is transitive. I thus render it “awakens to (with the object),” though otherwise I generally translate words derived from the verb bujjhati as expressing the sense of “enlightenment.”


Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With birth as condition, bhikkhus, aging-and-death.’

BB: The Sinhala-script edition contains a footnote which explains that the statement below, “Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this ...” should be inserted at the end of each section on the conditioning relationships; and each following section should begin with the statement, “whether there is an arising of Tathāgatas....”
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Reading this passage you quoted again,
Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With birth as condition, bhikkhus, aging-and-death.’
it reminds me of a passage (one I did not find on A2I) describing who is suitable to teach the Dhamma.

it is not necessarily true that all teachers have gone all the way to enlightenment or establishing the particular quality fully, as then disciples such as Ananda would not of been seen teaching before hand in the texts, but they have established it to some degree and the talk on the subject in discussion (ten subjects for proper conversation) aids further development of the quality, or knowledge of the truth such as with DO.

just a random though not entirely related to DO itself but thought it would be useful to reflect on regarding on-line discussions in general and the textual study more specifically.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:We're seeing in these suttas that there are many variations on DO, so it's a rather non-linear web of dependencies, not just linear or circular.

I think DO can be looked at in different ways, but I'm not clear why you're saying DO is non-linear? It seems to me that the order in which the nidanas appear is very significant to understanding the process.

Spiny
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

vinasp wrote: If the word is "jati" then it is the same word that is used in Dependent
Origination. Does this show that "jati" was commonly used to mean re-birth?
In the suttas jati is described in terms of physical birth - that's the important point IMO.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by mikenz66 »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:We're seeing in these suttas that there are many variations on DO, so it's a rather non-linear web of dependencies, not just linear or circular.

I think DO can be looked at in different ways, but I'm not clear why you're saying DO is non-linear? It seems to me that the order in which the nidanas appear is very significant to understanding the process.

Spiny
Here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ad#p175162" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I said:
I guess by non-linear I'm thining of how the links vary, and sometimes consciousness and name-and-form "turn back on themselves":...

Sometimes some are left out, and there are suttas such as the Honeyball Sutta, which use a part of the sequence to head off in a slightly different direction (but still ultimately dukkha...):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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“Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality: this is called dependent origination.

BB: At 56:20, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and
56:27 the Four Noble Truths are said to be tatha, avitatha , anaññatha—the adjectives corresponding to the first three abstract nouns here. Spk gives a very specific interpretation (translated just below), though we might suspect the original sense was simply that the teaching of dependent origination is true, not false, and not other than real.

Spk: Actuality (tathatā) is said to indicate the occurrence of each particular phenomenon when its assemblage of appropriate conditions is present. Inerrancy (avitathatā) means that once its conditions have reached completeness there is no nonoccurrence, even for a moment, of the phenomenon due to be produced from those conditions. Nototherwiseness (anaññathatā) means that there is no production of one phenomenon by another’s conditions. The phrase specific conditionality is used to refer to the (individual) conditions for aging-and-death, etc., or to the conditions taken as a group (paccayasamūhato).
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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mikenz66 wrote:Sometimes some are left out, and there are suttas such as the Honeyball Sutta, which use a part of the sequence to head off in a slightly different direction (but still ultimately dukkha...):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
Mike
Yes, I appreciate that there are variations in the way DO is presented, but I still don't understand why you're suggesting DO is non-linear - presumably you're not suggesting that the order in which the nidanas appear is arbitrary? Or do you mean that each nidana arises in dependence on the preceding "set" of nidanas?

It may partly depends on whether one views the nidanas as events or processes - from reading the suttas they look to me more like processes.

Spiny
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Hi Spiney
Try reading my posts from this one hereit and the link maybe of assistance for your query.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom[55] as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena, it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’ Or that he will run forward into the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become in the future?’ Or that he will now be inwardly confused about the present thus: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? How am I? This being—where has it come from, and where will it go?’[56]

[55] Sammappaññāya. Spk: With path wisdom together with insight (savipassanāya maggapaññāya).

[56] BB: The sixteen cases of doubt are also mentioned at MN I 8,4-15. [MN 2 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html].
  • BB notes there:
    According to MA, this passage is undertaken to show the taint of views (diṭṭhāsava, not expressly mentioned in the discourse) under the heading of doubt. However, it might be more correct to say that the taint of views, disclosed by [the next paragraph], emerges out of unwise attention in the form of doubt. The various types of doubt are already pregnant with the wrong views that will come to explicit expression in the next section.
For a discussion of their abandonment, see Visuddhimagga [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html] 599 (Ppn 19:5-6)
  • 5. After discerning the material body’s conditions in this way, he again discerns
    the mental body in the way beginning: “Due to eye and to visible object eye-
    consciousness arises” (S II 72; M I 111 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the
    past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions.

    6. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say,
    the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: “Was I in the past? Was
    I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been
    what, what was I in the past?” (M I 8 [MN 2]), and also the five kinds of uncertainty
    about the future stated thus: “Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future?
    What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what,
    what shall I be in the future?” (M I 8); and also the six kinds of uncertainty about
    the present stated thus: “Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will
    this being have come? Whither will it be bound?” (M I 8).
and Visuddhimagga [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html] 603-5 (Ppn 19:21-27).
  • 21. When he has discerned the conditions of mentality-materiality in this way
    by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and has
    abandoned uncertainty about the three periods of time, then all past, future and
    present states are understood by him in accordance with death and rebirth-
    linking. This is his full-understanding of the known (see XX.3).

    22. He understands thus: “Aggregates produced in the past with kamma as
    condition ceased there too. But other aggregates are produced in this becoming
    with past kamma as their condition, although there is no single thing that has
    come over from the past becoming to this becoming. And aggregates produced
    in this becoming with kamma as their condition will cease. And in the future
    becoming other aggregates will be produced, although no single thing will go
    over from this becoming to the future becoming.
    “Furthermore, just as, while the recitation from the teacher’s mouth does not
    enter into the pupil’s mouth, yet recitation does not because of that fail to take
    place in the pupil’s mouth—and while the potion drunk by the proxy does not
    enter the sick man’s stomach, yet the sickness does not because of that fail to be
    cured—and while the arrangement of the ornaments on the face does not pass
    over to the reflection of the face in the looking glass, yet the arrangement of the
    ornaments does not because of that fail to appear—and while the flame of a
    lamp does not move over from one wick to another, yet the flame does not because
    of that fail to be produced—so too, while nothing whatever moves over from the
    past becoming to this becoming, or from this to the future becoming, [604] yet
    aggregates, bases, and elements do not fail to be produced here with aggregates,
    §bases, and elements in the past becoming as their condition, or in the future
    becoming with aggregates, bases, and elements here as their condition.”

    23.
    Just as eye-consciousness comes next
    Following on mind element,
    Which, though it does not come from that,
    Yet fails not next to be produced,
    So too, in rebirth-linking, conscious
    Continuity takes place:
    The prior consciousness breaks up,
    The subsequent is born from that.
    They have no interval between,
    Nor gap [that separates the two];
    While naught whatever passes over,
    Still rebirth-linking comes about.

    24. When all states are understood by him thus in accordance with death and
    rebirth-linking, his knowledge of discerning the conditions of mentality-
    materiality is sound in all its aspects and the sixteen kinds of doubt are more
    effectively abandoned. And not only that, but the eight kinds of doubt that occur
    in the way beginning thus, “He is doubtful about the Master”
    (A III 248; Dhs§1004)
    http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    • 5. Cetokhilasutta: An arrow in the mind
      021.05. Bhikkhus, these five are arrows in the mind. What five?

      Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu has doubts about the Teacher, he does not feel inclined towards the Teacher, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the first arrow in the mind.

      Again, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu has doubts about the Teaching, ... re ... about the Community of bhikkhus, ... re ... about the training, ... re ... and abides with an angry afflicted mind towards the co-associates in the holy life, he does not feel inclined towards them, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the fifth arrow in the mind.
    are abandoned too, and the sixty-two kinds of views are suppressed (See
    DN 1 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html] and MN 102 [http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... aya-e.html]).

    25. The knowledge that has been established by the overcoming of doubt about
    the three periods of time by discerning the conditions of mentality-materiality
    according to the various methods should be understood as “purification by
    overcoming doubt.” Other terms for it are “knowledge of the relations of states”
    and “correct knowledge” and “right vision.”

    26. For this is said: “Understanding of discernment of conditions thus,
    ‘Ignorance is a condition, formations are conditionally arisen, and both these
    states are conditionally arisen,’ is knowledge of the causal relationship of states”
    (Paþis I 50). And:
    “When he brings to mind as impermanent, what states does he correctly
    know and see? How is there right seeing? How, by inference from that, are all
    formations clearly seen as impermanent? Wherein is doubt abandoned? When
    he brings to mind as painful ... When he brings to mind as not-self, what states
    does he correctly know and see? ... Wherein is doubt abandoned?
    “When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the
    sign. Hence ‘right seeing’ is said. Thus, by inference from that, all formations
    are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. When he brings
    to mind as painful, he correctly knows and sees occurrence. Hence ... When he
    brings to mind as not-self, he correctly knows and sees the sign and occurrence.
    Hence ‘right seeing’ is said. Thus, by inference from that, all states are clearly
    seen as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned.
    “Correct knowledge and right seeing and overcoming of doubt [605]—are
    these things different in meaning and different in the letter or are they one in
    meaning and only the letter is different? Correct knowledge and right seeing
    and overcoming of doubt—these things are one in meaning and only the letter
    is different” (Paþis II 62f.).

    27. When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge,
    he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he
    is certain of his destiny, he is called a “lesser stream-enterer.”

    So would a bhikkhu overcome
    His doubts, then ever mindfully
    Let him discern conditions both
    Of mind and matter thoroughly.
BB: Spk explains that the basic division expressed in the doubts—between existing and not existing in the past, etc.—reflects the antinomy of eternalism and annihilationism. The other doubts pertaining to past existence arise within an eternalist framework. Similar distinctions apply among the doubts pertaining to the future and the present.
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

vinasp wrote: 1. The three lifetimes model - here nama-rupa can be ones actual physical
body and ones actual mind, which have arisen due to ignorance and craving
in ones previous life.

2. The "limited to this life" model - here nothing in the series can be an
actual physical thing because ignorance is mental and only other mental
things can arise from it.
Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.
Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Several posters are objecting that a "psychological model" of Dependent
Origination does not make sense. They refer to the links "being", "birth"
and "old-age-and-death", as incompatible with any such model.

I cannot give a full explanation on this thread, but I will do so elsewhere.

Briefly, the psychological model interprets these three links as representing
views about self.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by mikenz66 »

“For what reason [is this impossible (running back to the past, etc)]? Because, bhikkhus, the noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena.”

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.
Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only - because a Buddha is still subject to aging, disease and death but does not experience them as dukkha ( Nibbana being synonymous with the cessation of dukkha ).

But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas? Does it make since to think about a Buddha experiencing physical birth, or indeed experiencing the process of "being" in the 3 realms, assuming that a Buddha is no longer subject to DO?

Spiny
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