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SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:16 am

“Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality: this is called dependent origination.

BB: At 56:20, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html and
56:27 the Four Noble Truths are said to be tatha, avitatha , anaññatha—the adjectives corresponding to the first three abstract nouns here. Spk gives a very specific interpretation (translated just below), though we might suspect the original sense was simply that the teaching of dependent origination is true, not false, and not other than real.

Spk: Actuality (tathatā) is said to indicate the occurrence of each particular phenomenon when its assemblage of appropriate conditions is present. Inerrancy (avitathatā) means that once its conditions have reached completeness there is no nonoccurrence, even for a moment, of the phenomenon due to be produced from those conditions. Nototherwiseness (anaññathatā) means that there is no production of one phenomenon by another’s conditions. The phrase specific conditionality is used to refer to the (individual) conditions for aging-and-death, etc., or to the conditions taken as a group (paccayasamūhato).

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:16 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:40 am

Hi Spiney
Try reading my posts from it and the link maybe of assistance for your query.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:28 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:32 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:51 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:47 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:55 pm

Hi everyone,

Several posters are objecting that a "psychological model" of Dependent
Origination does not make sense. They refer to the links "being", "birth"
and "old-age-and-death", as incompatible with any such model.

I cannot give a full explanation on this thread, but I will do so elsewhere.

Briefly, the psychological model interprets these three links as representing
views about self.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:17 am

“For what reason [is this impossible (running back to the past, etc)]? Because, bhikkhus, the noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena.”

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:15 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:11 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:15 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:24 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:56 pm

Last edited by Spiny O'Norman on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:00 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Location: Suffolk, England

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:40 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:57 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Last edited by daverupa on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:57 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:14 pm



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