Question about sensations

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
venkatad
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Question about sensations

Post by venkatad »

Are all sensations(pain/pleasure/pressure/numbness etc) Sankaras?? I don't think so...
If I am observing pain on my leg it could be sankhara..but not every time. I think irrespective of sankara or not we have to keep observe. If it is a sankahara it will take out deep rooted mental impurity,if not sankara it helps in developing equanimity.....Am I right?
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legolas
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by legolas »

I dont know. I tried to find some reference to "observing sankara's, being a means to eradicate deep rooted mental impurities", within the suttas but I could'nt find any.
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Ben
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Ben »

Greetings venkatad,
venkatad wrote:Are all sensations(pain/pleasure/pressure/numbness etc) Sankaras?? I don't think so...
If I am observing pain on my leg it could be sankhara..but not every time. I think irrespective of sankara or not we have to keep observe. If it is a sankahara it will take out deep rooted mental impurity,if not sankara it helps in developing equanimity.....Am I right?
Sankharas are composed phenomena consisting of cittas (mental states), dhammas (mental contents), vedanas (sensations) and rupa (physical processes). Vedananupassana (observation of the rise and fall of sensations) is a meditation practice mentioned in the satipatthana sutta and the vedana sutta. Observing sensations is a relatively accessible vipassana practice. When you observe sensations you are indirectly observing sankharas. Yes, when practicing vednanupassana, you practice with 'choiceless observation' and observe all sensations whether they be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral; gross nor subtle. They're all, for the purposes of developing vipassana, the same.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Goofaholix
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Goofaholix »

One thing I've often wondered about. Goenka uses the term sankhara a lot in his dhamma talks but the way he refers to it the meaning corresponds more like the meaning, and common usage, of the word kilesa. Is there a reason for this?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Ben »

Hi Goof
Part of it is that the ten-day course discourses are aimed at a particular western newbie audience and I think there is a slight variation of interpretation that maybe unique to the tradition from which he is from. He is much more precise with his use of terminology in the courses for old students.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Goofaholix
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote: Part of it is that the ten-day course discourses are aimed at a particular western newbie audience and I think there is a slight variation of interpretation that maybe unique to the tradition from which he is from. He is much more precise with his use of terminology in the courses for old students.
kind regards
I figured it was something along those lines. A bit like how it's common to use the term kamma when what we really mean is vipakkha.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Ben »

Indeed!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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legolas
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by legolas »

Ben wrote:Hi Goof
Part of it is that the ten-day course discourses are aimed at a particular western newbie audience and I think there is a slight variation of interpretation that maybe unique to the tradition from which he is from. He is much more precise with his use of terminology in the courses for old students.
kind regards

Ben
As I understand the tradition, it is the same 10 day course east or west and purports to give people a taste of the dhamma, irrespective of cultural or racial background.

What criteria is used for imparting the "precise" teaching?

Does this imply a two tier system?
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Ben
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by Ben »

legolas wrote: Does this imply a two tier system?
No.
As I mentioned earlier, the ten-day course is an introductory course. Numerous times throughout the discourses, SN Goenka says "this is the kindergarten of Dhamma". What is taught within this tradition is a gradual training and what is taught in a ten-day course is not the entire path.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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withing
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by withing »

Wow I have a lot to learn. :juggling:
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pilgrim
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by pilgrim »

When Goenka asks students to observe vedana , he is referring to physical vedana only ( that is pleasant/unpleasant sensations on the body). Does he recognise that vedana could also refer to mental vedana and is a student also suppose to observe this?

Does phasso always result in a physical vedana ( my understanding is he teaches this) ?
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bodom
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by bodom »

pilgrim wrote:When Goenka asks students to observe vedana , he is referring to physical vedana only ( that is pleasant/unpleasant sensations on the body). Does he recognise that vedana could also refer to mental vedana and is a student also suppose to observe this?
In Analalayo's satipatthana commentary he quotes an article by Goenka entitled "Sensation the Key to Satipatthana" pg. 22 note 16. In this article Goenka proposes that...
Goenka wrote:"Since the "body" is to be experienced via "feelings", which at the same time are related to the "mind" by being "mental objects" , by observing bodily sensations one can cover all four satipatthanas."


I dont have much knowledge on Goenkas style of practice but can conclude from the article above that in Goenkas practice when one is observing physical vedana they would already be indirectly observing mental vedana as well.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
farmer
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by farmer »

Here is a nice piece by Ven. Bodhi on the ways the word "sankhara" functions in the canon.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_43.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is it my imagination, or does Goenka use the word in a somewhat idiosyncratic way?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings farmer,
farmer wrote:Is it my imagination, or does Goenka use the word in a somewhat idiosyncratic way?
What Goenkaji calls sankharas are indeed sankharas.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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pilgrim
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Re: Question about sensations

Post by pilgrim »

So how do I apply this experience in real life? When I face a situation, am I supposed to look for a corresponding sensation somewhere on my body? That doesn't seem practical.
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