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the great rebirth debate - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:50 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:56 pm

ok sure,

My understanding of the Cārvāka teaching on kamma is this

They taught that actions produce results but as they held the view that there was no other existence apart from the one that is experienced now not all results would bear to fruitation so they limited kamma to just this existence, which is the only logical way it could be if there was but one existence for kamma to operate.

At least that is my understanding of their teachings reguarding kamma.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:59 pm

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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:18 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:24 pm

But if all questions about kamma and rebirth are just speculations and inherently misunderstandings and/or useless then how does one come to know for sure if kamma or rebirth etc is true at all in any sense?

Thank your for your reply though you have given me much to contemplate
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:28 pm


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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:31 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:34 pm

So he only taught rebirth/kamma in order to get his message through in some way to the people he was teaching. As such they are only concepts, only words to convey a deeper meaning?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:59 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:03 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:33 pm

Acctually ive just kinda realised, all my posts revolved around "me" just pandering to craving. I kinda now see it as there is no rebirth as there is no "I" to be reborn as at everymoment there is just rise and fall without and "I" passing through. It was like "I" was asking what will be reborn next without realising, which is absurd because right here, right now there is no permanent self so there can be no "I" to be reborn as all is anatta.


Funny it was just like a light bulb went on,

Thanks to all who participated in this post as it has really helped my understanding

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Element » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:49 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:59 pm

DO you mean i need to contemplate on the :idea: i just had?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Element » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:06 pm

Clw

The purpose of the Buddha's teaching, including anatta, is to end suffering.

Thus when death approaches our life, dukkha or unease may potentially arise, in either gross or subtle forms.

If we realise anatta, there will be no dukkha at all because there will be no 'me' dying.

There is the realisation, this life was merely life, merely aggregates, but never 'ours'.

With realisation, there will be the effortless 'dispossession' of life as though is was never possessed in the first place.

With metta,

Element

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:39 pm

I think all teachings are best not taken altogether literally. Learning needs space for new understandings to flower. I dont think real knowledge can come from taking a bunch of concepts we already think we understand and mixing them up in various ways to form new meanings. If we listen to the words of the Buddha with a strictly defined idea of what each word means then we will only get a different way of looking at what we already know. It seems to me that the Buddha knew this was the case. I think he taught in a way that would bring a greater degree of happiness and prosperity for those who take him literally as well as in a way that would lead some to transcendence. This is where I think we must tread very lightly. We must do our best to allow for literal understandings which foster well being. This is not easy and that is why I defer to the Buddha. I actually think Karma and Rebirth is the closest and most compassionate way reality can be described when we expect to be taken literally.


Metta


Gabriel

Edited for more clarity
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Element

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Element » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:49 am


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:22 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:10 pm

Doesn't two thousand five hundred years of a broad spectrum of people approaching the teachings of the Buddha from many angles with virtually no great recognized teacher disputing the value of rebirth as a teaching have at least some weight?


I feel it does and I am not really that attached to rebirth.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:12 pm

True but this could just mean that rebirth is good to have as a view but not a representation of an actual process.

It is call right view with effulents in the pali canon and when they discuss supermundane right view it never covers rebirth only thinkgs like 4 noble truths etc.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:32 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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