Arahants in Early Buddhism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The reference to Sn 54, appears to be a verse from Sn 1.3 The Rhinoceros-horn:

54. It is an impossibility for one who delights in company to obtain (even)
temporary release. Having heard the voice of the sun's kinsman, one
should wander solitary as a rhinoceros horn.

[ The Rhinoceros Horn (Sutta Nipata), K.R. Norman, PTS London. page 8 ]

Regards, Vincent.
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Virgo
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Virgo »

Hi Vinasp,

Temporary release, in both instances refers to the temporary release of jhana.

Kevin
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retrofuturist
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So many of the similes and explicit teachings in the suttas point towards the inevitability of complete destruction of all fetters once the stream has been entered. Talk of going backwards is totally inconsistent with that, and is suggestive to me of agendas to diminish the status of the arahant - either to promote something higher (like a bodhisattva path), or to pull it down to one's own level (like Daniel Ingram) in order to enjoy the prestige of "being an arahant". As Kevin observed, the Kathavatthu would be a relevant source in information in this regard.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Friend
vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Two things which might be relevant to this question:

1. The wrong path in its tenfold variant, ends with "wrong liberation",
does anyone know what this is?

2. There are passages where the Buddha says that not every person who
declares gnosis (anna), is genuine, some "over-estimate themselves".

Regards, Vincent.
You answer your own question here! #2 is the answer to #1
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Friends,
If you can slide back from enlightenment there would be little point in striving for it, as you would only be reborn again anyway, may as well just aim for an easier target like the Deva realms or the formless realms, they last long enough to make samsara bearable.

but I understand that the early schools were consistent in that Enlightenment isn't something you can rejoin samsara from, you are either enlightened or not.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi Kevin,

Yes, you are correct.

The problem seems to be that those who attain temporary release are not
called arahants in the Theravada school, but they are so called in some
of the other schools. How did that difference arise?

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

Quote:"and is suggestive to me of agendas to diminish the status of the arahant"

I agree with most of what you say in that post. My only comment would be that
for schools such as the Pudgalavadins, they were not saying that all arahants
regress, some do, but others are "permanently" liberated.

Regards, Vincent.
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Virgo
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Virgo »

vinasp wrote:Hi Kevin,

Yes, you are correct.

The problem seems to be that those who attain temporary release are not
called arahants in the Theravada school, but they are so called in some
of the other schools. How did that difference arise?

Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,

I am not sure. And I am not sure that there is a direct correlation betwixt the two. The misunderstanding may have arisen due to other things.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi Cittasanto,

Quote:"You answer your own question here! #2 is the answer to #1"

Yes, it could be.

Quote:"but I understand that the early schools were consistent in that Enlightenment isn't something you can rejoin samsara from, you are either enlightened or not."

Yes, where true enlightenment is meant. The problem may have arisen from the
designation of the jhanas as a series of liberations.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The KS i 150 reference is SN 4.23 - Godhika - Here is part of the PTS English
translation by Mrs. Rhys Davids, page 149-150:

"The Exalted One was once staying at Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at
the Squirrels Feeding-ground. And on that occasion the venerable Godhika
was staying at Black Rock, on the slopes of Seers Hill. And he, abiding
in zealous, ardent and strenuous study, touched (2) temporary (3)
emancipation of mind, and then fell away therefrom. And this befel him
a second, and yet a third time, yes, even six times (4).
Then he thought: 'Up to six times have I fallen away from temporary
emancipation of mind. What if I were now to use the knife?' (5)."

[ The "knife" is a symbol of insight or wisdom - typical word play. ]

Notes:

2. Comy: patilabhi.

Regards, Vincent.
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Virgo
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Virgo »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

The KS i 150 reference is SN 4.23 - Godhika - Here is part of the PTS English
translation by Mrs. Rhys Davids, page 149-150:

"The Exalted One was once staying at Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at
the Squirrels Feeding-ground. And on that occasion the venerable Godhika
was staying at Black Rock, on the slopes of Seers Hill. And he, abiding
in zealous, ardent and strenuous study, touched (2) temporary (3)
emancipation of mind, and then fell away therefrom. And this befel him
a second, and yet a third time, yes, even six times (4).
Then he thought: 'Up to six times have I fallen away from temporary
emancipation of mind. What if I were now to use the knife?' (5)."

[ The "knife" is a symbol of insight or wisdom - typical word play. ]

Notes:

2. Comy: patilabhi.

Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent.

In this case it was jhana too. And the knife was a razor he used to cut his throat with.

Kevin
vinasp
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi Kevin,

According to the commentary. But you should not believe everything that
they say. In MN 23.4 we find:

"The knife is a symbol for noble wisdom."

The commentators have a problem when a sutta text has a double meaning. They
usually play safe and explain it the way that a puthujjana is intended to
understand it.

Regards, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

The KS i 150 reference is SN 4.23 - Godhika - Here is part of the PTS English
translation by Mrs. Rhys Davids, page 149-150:

"The Exalted One was once staying at Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at
the Squirrels Feeding-ground. And on that occasion the venerable Godhika
was staying at Black Rock, on the slopes of Seers Hill. And he, abiding
in zealous, ardent and strenuous study, touched (2) temporary (3)
emancipation of mind, and then fell away therefrom. And this befel him
a second, and yet a third time, yes, even six times (4).
Then he thought: 'Up to six times have I fallen away from temporary
emancipation of mind. What if I were now to use the knife?' (5)."

[ The "knife" is a symbol of insight or wisdom - typical word play. ]

Notes:

2. Comy: patilabhi.

Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,
I found another version of this text here for comparison.
Translation by Bhikkhuni Uppalavanna wrote:8. For the sixth time venerable Godhika while abiding diligent to dispel touched the release of mind in concentration. For the sixth time venerable Godhika fell away from that release of mind in concentration.

9. For the seventh time venerable Godhika while abiding diligent to dispel touched the release of mind in concentration. For the seventh time.

10. Then it occurred to venerable Godhika, up to the sixth time I fell away from that release of mind in concentration. What if I take my life?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by vinasp »

Hi Cittasanto,

It is always good to compare different translations. That version is a
reasonable one.

The problem arises when the Pali includes an idiomatic expression which
also has a double meaning. Bhikkhu Bodhi's version has:

"Then it occurred to the venerable Godhika:"Six times already I have
fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife." 309

Note 309 reads:"Sattham ahareyyam. A euphemistic expression for suicide ..."

Full enlightenment is "psychological death" and since they are so fond of
double meanings and "word-play", it is not surprising that they take
advantage of the opportunity to have monks "die" and "commit suicide"
with alarming frequency. This stuff is not meant to be taken literally,
no doubt it was a great joke at the time.

Regards, Vincent.
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Virgo
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Re: Arahants in Early Buddhism

Post by Virgo »

vinasp wrote:Hi Cittasanto,

It is always good to compare different translations. That version is a
reasonable one.

The problem arises when the Pali includes an idiomatic expression which
also has a double meaning. Bhikkhu Bodhi's version has:

"Then it occurred to the venerable Godhika:"Six times already I have
fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife." 309
Have you guys read the Sutta?

Kevin
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