YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Hostility to Ananda - Dhamma Wheel

Hostility to Ananda

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Hostility to Ananda

Postby Bankei » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:43 pm

Ananda seems to get a hard time in some sections of the Pali canon. There sees to be some hostility to him even though he was the closest companion to the Buddha. The Buddha himself gives Ananda a hard time in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta and he nearly doesn't make it into the first council an then when he does he is criticised for various 'offences' an faults.

From a 'classical Theravada' point of view, why is this so?

Thoughts from other traditions also welcome.

Bankei
-----------------------
Bankei

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:22 am

Hi Bankei,

I can't right now locate a good reference, but I'm sure I have read somewhere that there is evidence, in the evolution of the suttas, of a power struggle involving Maha Kassapa and Ananada.

These are the closest things I can locate, but they doesn't really have any details:
Maha Kassapa, Father of the Sangha, by Hellmuth Hecker
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 5.html#ch8
Ananda, The Guardian of the Dhamma, by Hellmuth Hecker
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh273-p.html# ... ftheBuddha

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:27 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:36 am


Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Bankei » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:37 am

Hi

Well, just off the top of my head
1. Buddha gives a hint to Ananda that he will lenghten his life but Ananda fails to get the point and therefore fails to request him to do so.
2. Ananda cries when he realises the Buddha is going to die - possibly because he has not yet become an arahat and he wouldn't have a teacher to assist

And, later
1. there are 499 arahat getting ready for the first council, but Ananda is only reluctantly invited.
2. Ananda is criticsed at the council for
a. Allowing women to be admitted to the order
b. accdently exposed the Buddha's body to women when moving his corpse.
c. He forgot to ask the Buddha what he meant by lessor minor rules
d. He stepped on the Buddha's robe
-----------------------
Bankei

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:19 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:39 am


User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Zom » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:15 am

Here is the link about 1st Council (Vinaya, Culavagga, 11)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20119.htm


1) 'That was ill done by thee, friend Ânanda, in that thou didst not ask the Blessed One which were the lesser and minor precepts. Confess thy fault.'

'Through forgetfulness was it, Sirs, that I did not ask that of the Blessed One. I see no fault therein. Nevertheless, out of my faith in you, I confess that as a fault.'

2) 'This also, friend Ânanda, was ill done by thee, in that thou steppedst upon the Blessed One's rainy-season garment to sew it. Confess thy fault.'

'It was not, Sirs, through any want of respect to the Blessed One that I did so. I see no fault therein. Nevertheless, out of my faith in you, I confess that as a fault.'

3) 'This also, friend Ânanda, was ill done by thee, in that thou causedst the body of the Blessed One to be saluted by women first 2, so that by their weeping the body of the Blessed One was defiled by tears. Confess that fault.'

'I did so, Sirs, with the intention that they should not be kept beyond due time. I see no fault therein. Nevertheless, out of my faith in you, I confess that as a fault.'

4) 'This too, friend Ânanda, was ill done by thee, in that even when a suggestion so evident and a hint so clear were given thee by the Blessed One, thou didst not beseech him, saying, "Let the Blessed One remain on for a kalpa! Let the Happy One remain on for a kalpa for the good and happiness of the
great multitudes, out of pity for the world, for the good and the gain and the weal of gods and men 1!" Confess that fault.'

'I was possessed (by the Evil One) 2, friends, when I refrained from so beseeching him. I see no fault therein. Nevertheless, out of my faith in you, I confess that as a fault.'

5) This also, friend Ânanda, was ill done by thee, in that thou exertedst thyself to procure admission for women into the Dhamma and Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathâgata 3. Confess that fault.'

'That did I do, friends, thinking of Mahâ Pagâpatî the Gotamî, the sister of the Blessed One's mother; his nurse and comforter, who gave him milk; how she, when she who had borne him was dead, herself suckled him as with mother's milk. I see no fault therein. Nevertheless, out of my faith in you, I confess that as a fault.'

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:25 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:06 am

These stories appear to me to be characteristic of the way that lives become mythologised. This does not render them pointless. The process happens for a reason..usually to stand as examples , role models and cautions to others. But they generally need unpacking. A literal reading seems to be to smack of naivety.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:21 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby daverupa » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:30 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:42 pm

Thanks for finding that, Dave.

Note that this thread is now in "Early Buddhism", which is a better place to discuss historical analysis.

:anjali:
Mike

Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Bankei » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:23 pm

Thank you for all the replies. Please keep em coming!

I just found it rather strange that Ananda seems to be singled out. No other monk seems to have received the same or similar treatment and this is odd given Ananda's role in the religion. Also by the time of the council Ananda is an arahat yet is still criticised for his past actions.

For those interested I have come across a very interesting Ph.D. Thesis. It is 524 pages long and I am only up to p 24, but looks very interesting so far. It is freely downloadable too:

Freedman, Michael
1977 The Characterization of Ananda in the PAli canon of the TheravAda: A Hagiographic Study.
Ph.D. dissertation, McMaster University
http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/opend ... ions/3131/
-----------------------
Bankei

Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Bankei » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:28 pm

-----------------------
Bankei

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:24 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Virgo
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:35 am



User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:34 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Bakmoon » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:21 am

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Hostility to Ananda

Postby Sekha » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:53 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org


Return to “Early Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine