Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

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Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:36 pm

a spin-off from a current thread elsewhere....

Cittasanto wrote:Have you thought some men may feel the same about women for good reason?


it's a pertinent point you make, but this kind of brutality is a fairly recently-aired phenomenon.
Rightly, it fills people with shock, horror and indignation - and even some disbelief - that women (the so-called 'gentler sex') could behave in such a cruel, callous and despicable way.
however:
Women have been subjected to unspeakable horrors for millennia, and in some countries, heinous, deplorable and inhuman treatment of women goes on, unabated and legitimised. Today, as we speak, women are forced into marriage, raped, subjected to inhuman treatment and treated in bloody and cruel ways, such as female circumcision. the term itself is risible.....
Yet the moment a woman complains - in a location frequented mostly by men - that they feel justified in resenting the male race for this treatment, there is always one that says 'women can be just as bad'.
With the influence we have been subjected to, are you honestly surprised?

thereductor wrote:It surprises me how quick and hard some of the female members here come down on the male gender.

Really?
why are you surprised, given the treatment we have been subjected to for so long?

is the worm turning so uncomfortable for you, and are you so surprised that the historically-recent women's Lib movement has motivated such an upsurge of rebellion?
would you rather we did not speak of how we feel, because it offends your sensibilities as a man, to be held accountable for the collective conscousness of men that has been conditioned and programmed, inspite of modern 21st century thinking, to continue to hold women back?

They point at personal experience, and at famous men who were decidedly flawed. Might I suggest that we men have examples from our lives of very poor conduct by women, too? Violence and a rampant disregard for the well being of others? They are not famous, so may we dismiss those people and their foulness from the discussion?

don't use the term 'they'. call me by name, i can take it.
Name me one piece of cruelty a man has been subjected to, that has not first been subjected on a woman.
I have already said that any form of violence, by one person, against another is inexcusable and unforgivable, unless, of course, it's self-defence.....
But to bracket the evil women have done, as something separate, worse, different or particular, in comparison to Man's inhumanity to woman, is frankly, unrealistic.

It seems a shame to be a man, to think like a man, and a esteemable virtue to be a woman. Is that about right?

according to some, yes.
Men and women are different, and such differences should be lauded, celebrated, enjoyed and congratulated. As members of the same species, we should be mutually supportive, encouraging and complementary.
Instead, methodically, repeatedly and persistently, men have, throughout the ages - and even today - sought to suppress, subjugate and vilify women as inferior and unworthy.
From earning markedly less than men, for doing the same work, to executing a woman by stoning, for being raped - the extent of this suppression has been constant and widespread.

This discussion is rather sad.

for probably different reasons, i completely agree....

Dan74 wrote:Maybe unabashed men bashing is a necessary therapeutic step towards equanimity and good-will?


i find this extraordinarily patronising.
No, unabashed man-bashing is not a "necessary therapeutic step towards equanimity and good-will."
"Unabashed man-bashing" happens because frankly, women are pissed off with constant woman-bashing.

Gentlemen:
I wonder if you would be so good, and co-operative to obtain a copy of the following;
"Misogyny - the world's oldest Prejudice".
It is a factual, anecdotal and accurate account of the repeated horrific and constant subjugation of women, throughout the ages, by men.
it recounts the origins and the outrages, alike.
and the author is male.

i would heartily recommend it.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:48 pm

Greetings,

The ideal cultivation of the brahma-viharas is boundless, not differentiated by gender.

The ideal cultivation of the perception of anatta is to lay down the conceit (mana) that one is better, worse or equal to others.

:heart: :buddha2: :heart:

SN 47.19 wrote:Looking after oneself, one looks after others.
Looking after others, one looks after oneself.

And how does one look after others by looking after oneself?
By practicing (mindfulness), by developing (it), by doing (it) a lot.
And how does one look after oneself by looking after others?
By patience, by non-harming, by loving kindness, by caring (for others).
(Thus) looking after oneself, one looks after others;
and looking after others, one looks after oneself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:17 pm

Please, please believe me when i tell you that honestly and sincerely, i am mindful of that, and have so tried to practice it.
Why is it then, that every time i feel i am beginning to conquer my emotional aversion to the male of the species - some dominating, arrogant, heavy-handed male chauvinist comes along, scuppers my practice and spoils it all, by proving my previous sentiments and suspicions, right?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Dan74 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:19 pm

Fede wrote:a spin-off from a current thread elsewhere....

Dan74 wrote:Maybe unabashed men bashing is a necessary therapeutic step towards equanimity and good-will?


i find this extraordinarily patronising.
No, unabashed man-bashing is not a "necessary therapeutic step towards equanimity and good-will."
"Unabashed man-bashing" happens because frankly, women are pissed off with constant woman-bashing.

Gentlemen:
I wonder if you would be so good, and co-operative to obtain a copy of the following;
"Misogyny - the world's oldest Prejudice".
It is a factual, anecdotal and accurate account of the repeated horrific and constant subjugation of women, throughout the ages, by men.
it recounts the origins and the outrages, alike.
and the author is male.

i would heartily recommend it.


Fede how would you feel if I said the following (and humour me, read it slowly and with an open mind):

But Italians, in general?
I have little respect for them, and much disdain.
I dislike them as a group, intensely, and no matter how hard I try to shake myself out of it, tell myself I'm being unreasonable, unfair and prejudiced - time and time again, I come across situations that impact on my life that unfortunately either confirm or reinforce my opinions.
[...]
i am currently being subjected to very poor treatment, some harassment and much victimisation at work, so much so that i am considering suing for constructive dismissal.
every single person involved in creating this situation, is Italian.

I have cast my mind back to specifically significant experiences in my life, and i have found that every situation in my life, hitherto, that I have ever been in, which has caused me discomfort, distress, anxiety, sadness or mental/physical harm - has been created, engineered or instigated by Italians.

It's hard to not be bitter, angry, resentful or jaded, when the very people whom you know you need to embrace, just keep repeatedly illustrating why you really shouldn't.
---
Of course, this is just what you have written with "men" replaced by "Italians". Mind you if I had used "Jewish", "Black" or "gay" the indignation is likely to be even stronger but I know that tu sei Italiana, ho deciso a scegliere questo gruppo per l'esperimente.

It is not debatable that human history has been far from perfect and men had a key role to play in that. But I suggest that whatever resentment and prejudice we all feel, we should own it, face it and deal with it, because none of us has the high moral ground to condemn another gender, race, ethnic group or sexual orientation. Obviously we all have different life experiences and kamma - I've been fortunate to meet many wonderful men and women in my life so far.

That's all, no patronising intended. Healing may be the key word here. And I hope we all heal.

I am sorry about your work situation and I hope it improves.
_/|\_

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby rowboat » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:24 pm

It's an extension of patriarchy that males living within a culture of entitlement will be mostly oblivious to the voices of women who rightfully challenge its legitimacy.

Stepping Out From Behind the Wall: Acknowledging Male Privilege and Its Connecton to Violence Against Women
http://blackcoffeepoet.com/2011/09/05/s ... nst-women/
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Dan74 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:30 pm

'He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me' — for those who brood on this, hostility isn't stilled. 'He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me' — for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. Unlike those who don't realize that we're here on the verge of perishing, those who do: their quarrels are stilled.
_/|\_

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:33 pm

Greetings Fede,

Fede wrote:Please, please believe me when i tell you that honestly and sincerely, i am mindful of that, and have so tried to practice it.

I believe is the right Dhammic action for those on both sides of the perceived divide.

I also believe it's the right Dhammic action for those who don't perceive any divide, either.

It's right because the Dhamma of the Buddha leads to ease (sukha) and away from dis-ease (dukkha).

:group:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:41 pm

Unfortunately, from my PoV it's mainly one-sided... the men i speak of specifically wouldn't know, understand or accept the Dhamma if it jumped out at them with big day-glo-orange foam rubber hands and whupped them over the head...
so it's largely a mono-lateral effort....
It's an utterly demoralising situation.

What to do, what to do..... :thinking:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:58 pm

Greetings Fede,

Fede wrote:Unfortunately, from my PoV it's mainly one-sided... the men i speak of specifically wouldn't know, understand or accept the Dhamma if it jumped out at them with big day-glo-orange foam rubber hands and whupped them over the head...
so it's largely a mono-lateral effort....
It's an utterly demoralising situation.

What to do, what to do..... :thinking:

Here's what do to... imagine how demoralising it would be if you'd taken a vow to lead them to enlightenment!

:rofl:

And now be thankful you haven't! 8-)

For what it's worth, in my not too distant past I was subjected to much unpleasantness from a particular person. This person had a gender, they had a nationality, they had any manner of attributes by which one might be able to classify them. But any classification would just have given grounds for conceptual proliferation to arise, and yes, on occasion it did arise, and yes, on those occasions, predictably I inflicted additional suffering over and above what I was being subjected to. So what did I do? Well, I changed my environment. If I was an arahant, I'm sure it would have rolled off me like a raindrop on a lotus, but I'm not an arahant and I need all the help I can get. In suttas directed towards both householders and monastics, the Buddha spoke in praise of finding environments that are conducive towards development. We might think, 'Why should I have to do this, it's them causing the problems?", but as right as that might be in conventional terms, it's not Right View because it's not looking clearly at the matter of suffering, its causes, and its cessation. It's veering into the realms of "should" and it's a "should" you don't have much control over, so try not to invest in it too passionately. Better to invest in what we do have control and autonomy over, and that is how much effort we put into living according the Dhamma, and receiving the benefits that are commensurate with that pursuit of the Noble Eightfold Path.

If that feels too difficult or too far away, there are other more mundane ways by which to empower yourself and get the ball rolling. Feeling that all positive results were being frustrated by this particular person, I began to feel demoralised and realised I had to pick myself up off the floor. What I did was to get healther, lose about 10kg and get into the healthy BMI range for the first time ever. Here was something productive I could invest my energies in thats results were entirely dependent on, and proportional to, what I did. This was something this person could not stop me achieving! It got me off the floor, it got me re-started, and it's onward and upwards from there. (In this connection, see also the books of author, Andrew Matthews - http://www.seashell.com.au/)

All the best.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Kenshou » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:14 am

Your mindset strikes me as a biased, half-blind, and caricature-like generalization which as a man I find somewhat offensive.

But on the other hand I realize that you may have had a particularly unfortunate set of experiences in this regard.

Anyhow, I absolutely recognize that women have had their share of misfortune in the past and now. And so I want to try and treat them well, in addition to everyone else. Because as has been brought up in another post, hostility will accomplish nothing but cause more of the same.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Virgo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:26 am

Fede wrote:From earning markedly less than men, for doing the same work, to executing a woman by stoning, for being raped - the extent of this suppression has been constant and widespread.

It sounds like you just want to gripe. I am a man. Have I done any of these things to you or anybody else? What we are talking about here is not a male vs. female thing, really-- it is just that some people have been ignorant people (notice not male or female) throughout time. The man in the video was a person who was also the victim of treatment by a deluded and ignorant person. That's all. It is true that it has been mostly man on woman in the past, but that is because of the roles the males and females play in society-- man is dominant, physically stronger, a worker, etc., women are sensitive, bare children, and so on (so there have been more opportunities for men to hurt women). But don't blame men or women, blame ignorance.

Kevin

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Alobha » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:48 am

Fede wrote:Unfortunately, from my PoV it's mainly one-sided... the men i speak of specifically wouldn't know, understand or accept the Dhamma if it jumped out at them with big day-glo-orange foam rubber hands and whupped them over the head...


Kenshou wrote:Your mindset strikes me as a biased, half-blind, and caricature-like generalization which as a man I find somewhat offensive.

But on the other hand I realize that you may have had a particularly unfortunate set of experiences in this regard.


I find this divise, demonizing speech that portraits certain people (yes, men are people) as dump, evil and stupid quite unskill und offensive, too. Then again, i agree with Kenshou here. Instead of getting angry this is an excellent opportunity to practice compassion, patience and understanding. If one's mind is distorted by hatred, it is as if one is tortured with burning sticks and needles, as if one's body is burning from fiery flames. This speech might be offensive, but who is the real victime of hatefilled speech?
The real victim of this speech is the person who has to live with this utter hatred within oneself. I can only imagine how miserable i would feel when i would hate half humanity. No day would pass without hatred overwhelming the heart, no day would pass without spitting poisonous words and setting one's mind on fire, no day would pass without suffering from one's own khamma. I hope that for the sake of their own well being, they will be able to overcome this hatred one day.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Alex123 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:59 am

Fede,

Physical abuse is not the only one abuse that is possible, and sometimes it is not the worst one. Women can, and often do much better at other forms of abuse than man can ever do. Physical abuse is brainless and is not as harmful as emotional and financial abuse that can be done. It seems that scolding and pushing emotional buttons is something that is easier for women to do, and it often hurts more than a fist.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:24 am

Fede wrote:Women have been subjected to unspeakable horrors for millennia, and in some countries, heinous, deplorable and inhuman treatment of women goes on, unabated and legitimised. Today, as we speak, women are forced into marriage, raped, subjected to inhuman treatment and treated in bloody and cruel ways, such as female circumcision. the term itself is risible.....
Yet the moment a woman complains - in a location frequented mostly by men - that they feel justified in resenting the male race for this treatment, there is always one that says 'women can be just as bad'.
With the influence we have been subjected to, are you honestly surprised?

Hi Fede,
considering you are twisting the post I made on another thread to mean something it wasn't intended to, I shall point out that the men here arent responsible for the men 1000 years ago, or men anywhere else, they are responsible for no other than themselves!
If rebirth is anything to go by you were possibly one of those men, fwiw.

is the worm turning so uncomfortable for you, and are you so surprised that the historically-recent women's Lib movement has motivated such an upsurge of rebellion?

are you really suggesting this is something which never happened before?

would you rather we did not speak of how we feel, because it offends your sensibilities as a man, to be held accountable for the collective conscousness of men that has been conditioned and programmed, inspite of modern 21st century thinking, to continue to hold women back?

what a consciousness that it is wrong for a man to hit a woman but perfectly OK for a woman to hit a man?
but that was only my upbringing NOT ALL MENS, or does that offend your sensibilities as a woman to be able to paint all men with the same brush?
here is an example I have seen in work
There was this Black woman from South Africa started and she was really good worker, all the white south Africans were saying she was lazy, stupid, just wanting a free ride, for no reason than she was BLACK, fortunately there were two South Afticans there from English descent, who turned around and told the Afrikans guys they didn't have a clue and then complained to HR about them.
from this experience I can legitimately (with experience) say Afrikans South Africans are rasist T347S but would I be right to say that? NO, just as I would be wrong to say all women are vicious B17023S just because I happened to have a relationship with one, doesn't mean that all are the same. and in-case you say racism isn't the same, Bigotry is Bigotry no matter what the form.
and just so you know studies show females are more likely to bully those under them than males are.

don't use the term 'they'. call me by name, i can take it.
Name me one piece of cruelty a man has been subjected to, that has not first been subjected on a woman.

I have never taken a pot and smacked it across a woman's head! a woman done it to me!
You want "call me by name" i.e. specifics
but do you really want broad generalisations to prove a point?
SORRY, violence is violence, who started it is unprovable, just as when women started abusing men is, but it can be surmised it is not a new phenomena due to womens lib, there have been strong women through history you know.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:48 am

Fede wrote:Please, please believe me when i tell you that honestly and sincerely, i am mindful of that, and have so tried to practice it.
Why is it then, that every time i feel i am beginning to conquer my emotional aversion to the male of the species - some dominating, arrogant, heavy-handed male chauvinist comes along, scuppers my practice and spoils it all, by proving my previous sentiments and suspicions, right?

you haven't protected the cultivation?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Yana » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 am

Oh No no no....you guys i'm so sorryy...i didn't mean it to turn out like this!

please stop.. :(

Look it's so silly lets all hold hands and step back and see the bigger picture...remember..lets not get too attached with our genders...i mean we don't even exist to begin with right?!!..and we all have probably had our fair share of being both male and female in our countless past lives.

Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!
Life is preparing for Death

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Sanghamitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:07 am

Yana if you do not exist...who wrote your original post ?
Delusion results in many behaviours...including an unfair discrimination involving gender.
But I am sure the males will be delighted that you have just given them a free pass.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:21 am

Sanghamitta wrote:Yana if you do not exist...who wrote your original post ?
Delusion results in many behaviours...including an unfair discrimination involving gender.
But I am sure the males will be delighted that you have just given them a free pass.

including this post by the look of it!

Yana is obviously not talking about convention truth of a person, but the identification/ego.
and she by far has given no-one a free pass!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Kenshou » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:22 am

EDIT: My, what a crappy thread this is, if I'm not careful I won't even be adhering to my own advice, so I retract my snarky sentence but leave this much:

I myself will take a free pass to point out that this is good and bears repeating:

Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby rowboat » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:45 am

It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5


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