Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Thales » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:41 am

rowboat wrote:The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.


Not even close. Also if being opposed to the blatant misandry in this and the other thread implies little understanding, i'm not sure what ideology you espouse but it certainly isn't Buddhist.
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby plwk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:55 am

The other day I wanted to show my mom this... Image
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:11 am

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Reductor » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:32 am

Yana wrote:Oh No no no....you guys i'm so sorryy...i didn't mean it to turn out like this!

please stop.. :(

Look it's so silly lets all hold hands and step back and see the bigger picture...remember..lets not get too attached with our genders...i mean we don't even exist to begin with right?!!..and we all have probably had our fair share of being both male and female in our countless past lives.

Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!


Don't worry Yana. These he vs. she discussions come up now and again here on DW. This is not the first, by far. Usually though they take place within larger contexts, and not in threads dedicated to them.

But, in terms of your practice, remember that men, regardless what has been done by them, have feelings. They also fall prey to their own ignorance often, as do women. To pretend that specific forms of awfulness make one sex inherently inferior to another is rather crass, as feelings and ignorance persists within all beings and drive an enormous multitude of awful behaviour.

What seems especially heinous to me the position that all men are guilty of a collective crime, of which they must then prove themselves innocent. That seems the position taken by fede, sanghamitta and veppacitta.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:54 am

thereductor wrote:But, in terms of your practice, remember that men, regardless what has been done by them, have feelings.

Of course they have.
that they have expressed them warmly, equilaterally and positively, is unfortunately again, a recent phenomenon.
Once upon a time in the not so dim and distant past, to have admitted to, or expressed such feelings, would have resulted in ostracism and ridicule.
Then, when men began to, 'open up' it was referred to as 'being in touch with their feminine side'......
that's an interesting point, don't you think?

They also fall prey to their own ignorance often, as do women. To pretend that specific forms of awfulness make one sex inherently inferior to another is rather crass, as feelings and ignorance persists within all beings and drive an enormous multitude of awful behaviour.

then why do these feelings - against women - persist in so called intelligent cultures?
Can you not see, or understand how offended we are that as your equals in life, we are still systematically being subjected to such treatment?
Broaden your view... I'm condemning the treatment of women in what we term to be third-world cultures, but also deploring western male attitudes to women, as being overbearing and authoritarian.
It goes on, it persists and it's unacceptable.
cruelty to animals makes more headlines, and causes greater outcry that current global treatment of women today.

What seems especially heinous to me the position that all men are guilty of a collective crime, of which they must then prove themselves innocent. That seems the position taken by fede, sanghamitta and veppacitta.

And what collective crime have women been guilty of that you could hold us up to the same condemnation?
so far, in history, it seems our main crime has to have been women.....

Look at this thread.
Two people have spoken up 'for' the sentiments expressed here.
Look at how bristling and defensive, and offended the men have been, and have leapt to their own defence and condemned my arguments as mere spite and hostility

don't you see what women are up against in general, by the mere inclusion of those posts?
this is a cross-section and general consensus of opinion of society, condensed into a forum.....
Don't you guys get it - ?!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:35 am

Dan74 wrote:
Fede wrote:
Fede how would you feel if I said the following (and humour me, read it slowly and with an open mind):

<>snip<>
Of course, this is just what you have written with "men" replaced by "Italians". Mind you if I had used "Jewish", "Black" or "gay" the indignation is likely to be even stronger but I know that tu sei Italiana, ho deciso a scegliere questo gruppo per l'esperimente.

.........
I am sorry about your work situation and I hope it improves.


The tragic irony is that the company I work for is an Italian one, and the people involved - are Italians.
My mother - who is completely Italian - deplores the work and social ethics of men there.
sorry Dan - appreciate your effort, but like I said: It's a global problem.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 am

Thales wrote:.....Also if being opposed to the blatant misandry in this and the other thread implies little understanding, i'm not sure what ideology you espouse but it certainly isn't Buddhist.

Misandry is an interesting word.

permit me:
.....the archaic roots misrepresent misandry’s status as a new word, a neologism: antifeminists want nothing more than to mislead the public into thinking the word has always existed. With the seed of that deception planted, they can then blame its esoteric status on a feminist conspiracy that quietly removed misandry from our vernacular, just as reports of abusive women and battered men are allegedly censored by the agents of Political Correctness. This tactic has actually met with a good measure of success: many who encounter “misandry” for the first time are given cause to wonder why they have never before heard a word that is made to seem “obvious” in nature by its proponents. By adding a veneer of Pentelic marble to “man hater,” these men are able to act as if “misandry” were an unearthed treasure waiting to be found and not a newly minted piece of plastic.
The word and its variations (misandric, misandrist, et. al) were first used only by the most militant of antifeminists, where even the most published and professional remained outliers in male society. One early adopter of “misandry” was Warren Farrell, a man who once wrote on the benefits of incest for Penthouse magazine. Yet its constant repetition over the past decade has turned it from the battle-cry of the pathetic to a banal trivia question. It serves as the answer to “what is the opposite of misogyny.....


From here.

http://adonismirror.com/10152006_leader ... thropy.htm

What i am stating in this thread, isn't "Misandry"
If it were, i would be focussing my attack on all specific male contributors, and taking personal pot-shots at the individual mentalities expounded.

You are missing the point.
The point is, that i am outraged at the continued unequal and deplorable mistreatment of women in society today, which has gone on, largely unhindered for centuries, and which is still being perpetuated, at times unconsciously, by the conditioning, programming, social, ethical and moral line of thinking running even in this modern age.
Last edited by Fede on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Reductor » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:04 am

You have made a charge, and perhaps it is true for many men, for many times; yet it is untrue for me, for Dan and for Dave. Untrue, I suppose, for most of us here. Untrue, just as it is untrue women are weak and inferior as a group just because some women have been weak and inferior.

I bristle because you're intent on the narrative of social justice for women while being unjust in your view toward your fellow humans, because they are men. Your view of others should be fair minded, if you would have others be fair minded.

The subtext to those posts in sympathy to your own is that men are not really to be trusted first, but rather that they are to be suspect of some foul failing. Based on what? On the doings of other men at other times, in other places, and not on that man at that time. He is not to be given the benefit of the doubt.

It is akin to me thinking all women want to be, can be and should be subjugated simply because other women have been subjugated in other places and other time.

Yet the very notion of that would make you bristle all over. Indeed, you suppose that this is what would happen if you didn't bristle up. You suggest that your position is righting historical wrongs, and that it is good and proper. Your posts suggest that disagreeing with you is tantamount to being narrow viewed and rather ignorant.

Please.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby ground » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:19 am

Fede wrote:Men and women are different, and such differences should be lauded, celebrated, enjoyed and congratulated.

I would not want to advocate what from my perspective is "the cultivation of ignorance".

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Dan74 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:23 am

rowboat wrote:It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.


I don't think it's a good tactic to engage men on the discussion of gender issues by saying that "I really don't like men".

For my part I am very sad at the continued oppression and commodification of women now in the guise of the so-called "raunch culture". But as far as I can tell it is not about men being evil but rather due to human greed and need to control.

I think gender issues are a deep topic and women have suffered enormously throughout the whole of history. I am sure that many of us have witnessed this suffering first-hand and it is truly tragic.

But as others have said men have suffered too, sometimes at the hands of women and though this does not make all things equal, the kind of division and animosity shown here does no justice to our shared nature. To the fact that women's suffering is our suffering too, you are our mothers and sisters, our daughters and nanas. This is a human tragedy, not only women's tragedy, but above all, just like Yana has said these are the fruits of delusion, the chief of which is that there is "me" and "mine".

So while sharing honestly about unfair treatment, stereotypes, discrimination and oppression can be useful in tackling this delusion, reinforcing the "us versus them" is not, I think.

May all be well!
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Sanghamitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:03 am

rowboat wrote:It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.



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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:33 am

Fede wrote:that they have expressed them warmly, equilaterally and positively, is unfortunately again, a recent phenomenon.
Once upon a time in the not so dim and distant past, to have admitted to, or expressed such feelings, would have resulted in ostracism and ridicule.
Then, when men began to, 'open up' it was referred to as 'being in touch with their feminine side'......
that's an interesting point, don't you think?

how is it recent? poetry, art and the like are not exclusive female domains, and certainly express emotion.
this is yet another generalisation!
Males having feelings is not the result of some modern womans movenent nor is the expression of them.

then why do these feelings - against women - persist in so called intelligent cultures?

when you are demonstrating these feelings toward men, this question is a joke, and another generalisation.
sexism is found in any era, to one extent or another, social roles and duties change with the times, and thinking that it was a stead slope instead of a wave in how either sex have been is ridiculous.

Can you not see, or understand how offended we are that as your equals in life, we are still systematically being subjected to such treatment?

where?

Broaden your view... I'm condemning the treatment of women in what we term to be third-world cultures, but also deploring western male attitudes to women, as being overbearing and authoritarian.
It goes on, it persists and it's unacceptable.
cruelty to animals makes more headlines, and causes greater outcry that current global treatment of women today.

how can men be held responsible for the third world countries? and where are men being overbearing and authoritarian in the west?
your more than willing to scream problems women have with men but not those men have with women!

And what collective crime have women been guilty of that you could hold us up to the same condemnation?
so far, in history, it seems our main crime has to have been women.....

we are not in they year 1012 but 2012 and in the west for the most part, I have not seen any condemnation here except from the three mentioned, and these examples are weak generalisations, and when a woman actually said to hold on think for a moment, she was turned on disrespected with misrepresented.

Look at this thread.
Two people have spoken up 'for' the sentiments expressed here.
Look at how bristling and defensive, and offended the men have been, and have leapt to their own defence and condemned my arguments as mere spite and hostility

you did say this (emphasis added in these quotes from other posts)
Yet the moment a woman complains - in a location frequented mostly by men - that they feel justified in resenting the male race for this treatment, there is always one that says 'women can be just as bad'.

you are saying there is no resentment here? according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/spite they are related words and they do seam to be different angles of the same thing.

or this basis for your generalisations
Why is it then, that every time i feel i am beginning to conquer my emotional aversion to the male of the species - some dominating, arrogant, heavy-handed male chauvinist comes along, scuppers my practice and spoils it all, by proving my previous sentiments and suspicions, right?

were these sentiments and suspicions about how nice men are in general or a damn the many due to the few?

At one time I was hearing a couple of blokes say how they got verbal abuse for holding a door open for a woman, I didn't really believe this until it happened to me, and then I noticed more and more electric doors have been installed in shops, or other places frequented by the public, work places etc, could there be a relation? women don't like a door being held open for them due to the sexist nature of the act, yes a broad generalisation due to the responses of the few! and I know women who have no problem with simple acts of kindness, not going to blame the many for the misdeeds of the few!
how easy is it for a man to be accused of rape, even when it wasn't? and what is the attitude?

don't you see what women are up against in general, by the mere inclusion of those posts?
this is a cross-section and general consensus of opinion of society, condensed into a forum.....
Don't you guys get it - ?!

don't you see the general attitude men have to deal with each and every day in society? if you believe this is a one way thing where women are pure and blameless, you are wrong.
I wonder what would happen if a man expressed the sentiment being expressed by yourself in this thread.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:33 am

read the book.
first and foremost, read the book.
then defend mankind's inhumanity towards his constant partner.
both in the past, and in the present, both in the west and elsewhere.
You see, until men have systematically known millennia of persecution simply because of their gender, to the same extent women have known it, they will always cry foul, protest and never understand.
much of your post is factually inaccurate, Cittasanto, and therefore, I would simply recommend you broaden your research.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Aloka » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:36 am

.
For everyone....


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Alobha » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:02 pm

People might be interested in the discrimination of men and the side effects they suffer from based on empiric evidence, facts and numbers.
http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm

I hope this can help people to realize that stereotyping, no matter which gender, nationality or skin colour it affects, leads to many problems and much suffering for the accused. One does best by not condemning people in such a way. Men suffer greatly from the stereotypes of strength, toughness and success, too. Let us all overcome these stereotypes by stopping by judging people so much.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Vepacitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:34 pm

Men do not like it when they are questioned or when their gender is questioned or put to task. They point the finger back at the women. Men's masculinity is very very fragile, and if they feel that a woman is 'going for their bollocks' they attack. And I see a lot of attacking against women on this and the other thread.

I'll put it really simply, bullies don't like it when people stand up to them. People who have always 'been on top' (no pun intended - but well - if you want to you can intend the pun!) tend to fight back when they are challenged - civil rights and issues of people of colour are still disgraceful,especially in the US, by way of example ...

It just shows how very thin the veneer of civilisation is and how very shallow most people's understanding and cultivation of the dhamma is.

V.
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Vepacitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:37 pm

test
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:19 pm

Vepacitta wrote:test


You see, the system works. :tongue:
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:24 pm

There is no question that women have been mistreated over the past several thousands of years or more. I think some men here may be posting in a defensive way because they feel the OP and other posts are directed at them. But I don't think it necessarily is directed at all men.

But the good news in all this is that I think it could (hopefully) mostly become a moot issue soon. Women are out-performing men in so many areas, including college graduation rates, numbers of college graduates and it is at all levels, bachelor's, master's and doctorates. The future CEOs and leaders will be women. More egalitiarianism is coming to religious institutions, including Buddhist ones, such as the bhikkhuni ordinations in our Theravada, etc.

Just google gender or male female college graduation and you will see so many results. The future looks bright for women and men and egalitarianism.
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:31 pm

Fede wrote:read the book.
first and foremost, read the book.
then defend mankind's inhumanity towards his constant partner.
both in the past, and in the present, both in the west and elsewhere.
You see, until men have systematically known millennia of persecution simply because of their gender, to the same extent women have known it, they will always cry foul, protest and never understand.
much of your post is factually inaccurate, Cittasanto, and therefore, I would simply recommend you broaden your research.

First and foremost you have not experienced what you have not experienced, and unless you are over 1000 years old you only have a gripe with your perceived injustices you have internalised, you have not experienced them!
and if there is inaccuracies in my post prove them wrong, show how they are wrong!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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