disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

marc108 wrote:I have never heard an meditation teacher tell a student to IGNORE a Nimitta... perhaps your teacher may have no had experience with Jhana? You may want to find a teacher with some experience of Jhana and get some guidance.
It depends upon the context. If you are doing a short structured retreat, especially if you are new at meditation, that is likely to happen. In a less structured setting, things might be different. During a 3 month course I told the teacher with whom I was working about what i was experiencing. He said that was indicative of jhana and that I could one of two things. I could either simply watch the phenomena I was experiencing, or I could cultivate it. This was a teacher directly trained by Mahasi Sayadaw.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by marc108 »

Brizzy wrote: the pursuit of such pleasures is to be encouraged and pursued, not dis-couraged with false warnings?
right, exactly.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

marc108 wrote:
Brizzy wrote: the pursuit of such pleasures is to be encouraged and pursued, not dis-couraged with false warnings?
right, exactly.
The Dhamma, however, is not the pursuit of such pleasures of the 4th jhana or any jhana. At best "such pleasures" are a side effect of something more profound. Also, keep in mind that the attainment of jhana, of whatever level, is not coterminous with insight and can be a serious distraction.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by marc108 »

tiltbillings wrote:The Dhamma, however, is not the pursuit of such pleasures of the 4th jhana or any jhana. At best "such pleasures" are a side effect of something more profound. Also, keep in mind that the attainment of jhana, of whatever level, is not coterminous with insight and can be a serious distraction.
We may have to just agree to disagree on some key points here :) In my limited understanding, it seems the Buddha was very clear that the 'pleasure born from withdrawl', re: the Piti & Sukkha that come up on the way to and during Right Concentration are 'blameless', something to be pursued, something not to be avoided. Even the instructions for entering the 1st Jhana include actually using the Piti & Sukkha, expending them, infusing them... not avoiding them. I wont go nuts posting Sutta references unless you would like me to. Of course there is a much greater level of profundity to the Dhamma than pursuit of pleasure, but again the Buddha was very clear that the pleasure from Right Concentration is a good thing and a very necessary and useful part of meditation.

Ven. Thanissaro has some really useful views on this, he explained (and I agree with) that the danger of getting attached to the pleasures of the lower Jhanas is not an issue for the average person at the average persons point of progress...being still very full of craving for worldly pleasure, turning that attachment towards Wholesome, blameless pleasure can be useful and of great help on the path.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

marc108 wrote: We may have to just agree to disagree on some key points here :) In my limited understanding, it seems the Buddha was very clear that the 'pleasure born from withdrawl', re: the Piti & Sukkha that come up on the way to and during Right Concentration are 'blameless', something to be pursued, something not to be avoided.
Well, yes; however, the locution that was used: "pursuit of such pleasures is to be encouraged and pursued."

If I am going to pursue something in terms of meditative practice, it would be insight into what the nature of mind/body process that we are. In pursuing the "pleasures" of meditation, it is way too easy to get waylaid. It is not a matter of avoiding what arises during practice, and if one's practice is specifically jhana, with the guidance of an experienced teacher, the aspects of jhana can be cultivated.

The issue here in this thread, as it always is, is context, and here it is the context of the practice that is being undertaken that needs to be carefully understood before such condemnatory pronouncements as some of the above are unskillfully voice, such as:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 13#p176708" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by marc108 »

tilt, right i understand what you're saying. i think what breezy have been trying to get at... and if not, what i was trying to get at... is that if someone seems able to establish Jhana, then they should find a teacher and try to cultivate that state... as, in my understanding, Jhana is the clearest state the mind can observe the mind/body process. i wasnt trying to say that Jhana should be cultivated as some sort of drug or anything... in my thinking the pleasure is the means to get into Jhana, and Jhana is the means to penetrative insight. :smile:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by daverupa »

MN 139 wrote:One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial. The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma. One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself. One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech. One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly. One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage. This is the summary of the exposition of non-conflict.

...

“Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna…the second jhāna…the third jhāna…the fourth jhāna. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared.

“So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.’
And right before that in the canon,
MN 138 wrote:“And how, friends, is the mind called ‘stuck internally’? Here, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. If his consciousness follows after the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, is tied and shackled by gratification in the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, then his mind is called ‘stuck internally.’
---

tl;dr version:
SN 35.145 wrote:Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by Brizzy »

It is no use guys. Hundred's of sutta references could be provided to show that jhana is an integral part of dhamma (it is the eightfold path, not seven or six or five). It has been stated in this thread that the pursuit of jhana is not dhamma, what a calumny (the pursuit of concentration is another matter). The concentration practices utilised within the BVT produce all the problems we are warned about re jhana. Jhana practice as taught within the canon does not produce these problems. Its like this...............
A system of meditation and its belief structure is 'created' over a period of time. This system produces certain types of results and carries with it certain types of problems e.g. possibility of attachment to one pointed concentrated states, hardened mind etc. Now this system is NOT what is found in the suttas, the jhana in the suttas is a process of relinquishment and insight NOT a concentration exercise. Then the BVT warn people of the dire consequences of attachment to one-pointed concentration and they are right, but it is their own practices which produce this concentration, it is not jhana as taught within the canon that we should fear but the concentration developed by BVT and its suppression of the hindrances. Hindrances in the canon are gradually relinquished via jhana, not suppressed, this is how craving is abandoned. It is a gradual process, with jhana playing a starring role.

BTW I should add that I believe that nimittas and loss of bodily feeling is not part of the jhana process to be found in the suttas.

It should also be born in mind that not all Buddhists meditate, this to is fine. The canon is filled with people who are temporarily filled with joy whilst listening to the dhamma and realise the first stage of awakening. You do not have to meditate to be a follower of the Buddha and achieve awakening. The obsession with lay people doing retreats and racking up BVT mileage is quite a new phenomena

For the benefit of Tilt, who seems to know that I 'have a singular and limited experience'.....
All of the above is my opinion and is formed through personal experience and listening to teachers who understand the Dhamma. Although I have never documented my 'experience', suffice to say that I have been around a good few decades (aeons even), and I have made the dhamma an integral part of my life.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

marc108 wrote:tilt, right i understand what you're saying. i think what breezy have been trying to get at... and if not, what i was trying to get at... is that if someone seems able to establish Jhana, then they should find a teacher and try to cultivate that state... as, in my understanding, Jhana is the clearest state the mind can observe the mind/body process. i wasnt trying to say that Jhana should be cultivated as some sort of drug or anything... in my thinking the pleasure is the means to get into Jhana, and Jhana is the means to penetrative insight. :smile:
Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana? This question has been batted about repeatedly here and elsewhere.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 97#p140097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While the OP's description is suggestive of jhana, it is likely better understood as the jhana found in the latter texts, as our friend brizzy accurately points out: "I believe that nimittas and loss of bodily feeling is not part of the jhana process to be found in the suttas." And, of course, opinions on this are going to vary.Again, read through the first of link above, and take a look at bit more of this discussion:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 64&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, in terms of the OP, the author was at a 10 day introductory retreat, which is carefully structured as to give the student a basis of practice. While in another context such an experience as described might be explored with the guidance of the teacher, that is not the context of an introductory course.

Also, While the Burmese vipassana traditions do not initially put a focus on jhana, which they understand in terms of the Visuddhimagga type of interpretation of jhana, please do keep in mind the practices of the Burmese vipassana tradition cultivate highly refined levels of samadhi, which are essentially indistinguishable from from how some interpret the jhanas from a sutta context. To get an idea of this, take some time with these two talks by highly experienced meditation teachers, which are a nice contrast to the Burmese vipassana naysayers:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?search ... =-rec_date" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
SN 35.145 wrote:Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you.
And of course, jhana is being used here in a very generic sense, as it often is in the suttas, for meditate.

Ven Bodhi's translation:
  • Meditate, bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regrtet it later. That is our instruction to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Mawkish1983
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by Mawkish1983 »

tiltbillings wrote:here it is the context of the practice that is being undertaken that needs to be carefully understood before such condemnatory pronouncements as some of the above are unskillfully voice
I am sorry if my 'advice' was unskillful. I was sharing what I had been previously told and I did not consider the context. My mistake is my own.
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:It is no use guys. Hundred's of sutta references could be provided to show that jhana is an integral part of dhamma (it is the eightfold path, not seven or six or five). It has been stated in this thread that the pursuit of jhana is not dhamma, what a calumny (the pursuit of concentration is another matter).
Jhana in and of itself is not Dhamma. What makes it Dhamma is context, otherwise one would not have a list of wrong views catalogued in the suttas as a result of jhana.
The concentration practices utilised within the BVT produce all the problems we are warned about re jhana.
A claim that you make, but let us see your support for this.
Its like this...............
A system of meditation and its belief structure is 'created' over a period of time. This system produces certain types of results and carries with it certain types of problems e.g. possibility of attachment to one pointed concentrated states, hardened mind etc.
This is your riff on this, but it is a result of your experience, but is hardly characterizes my experience, nor the experience of many other experienced vipsassana mediation practitioners I know. So, it really does not go "like this."
Now this system is NOT what is found in the suttas, the jhana in the suttas is a process of relinquishment and insight NOT a concentration exercise.
Burmese vipassana can easily reference a grounding in the suttas.
Then the BVT warn people of the dire consequences of attachment to one-pointed concentration and they are right, but it is their own practices which produce this concentration, it is not jhana as taught within the canon that we should fear but the concentration developed by BVT and its suppression of the hindrances.
Wrong, again. The point is not suppress the hindrances, but in line with the Satipatthana Sutta and other suttas; rather, one is to be fully aware of the arising and passing of the hindrances, to see them without comment, allowing their impermanent, unsatisfactory, empty of self nature to become evident, as the Buddha states:
  • "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

    "When for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the
    heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized,
    then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms
    of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither
    here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."

    -- Ud I 10
  • And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in mental objects?

    Herein, monks, a monk lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances.

    How, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances?

    Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.
    -- MN 10
  • the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." Ud 37 (4.1)
Hindrances in the canon are gradually relinquished via jhana, not suppressed, this is how craving is abandoned. It is a gradual process, with jhana playing a starring role.
There is no suppression of hindrances here, and as we see in the links in the preceding msg by me, the sutta level of jhana is very much part and parcel of Burmese vipassana.
For the benefit of Tilt, who seems to know that I 'have a singular and limited experience'.....
All of the above is my opinion and is formed through personal experience and listening to teachers who understand the Dhamma. Although I have never documented my 'experience', suffice to say that I have been around a good few decades (aeons even), and I have made the dhamma an integral part of my life.
And my experience streches over 40 decades, having spent time with and worked with a number of teachers. I find your descriptions of Burmese vipassana, at best deficient. It may not have worked for you, but that does not mean it is not Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:here it is the context of the practice that is being undertaken that needs to be carefully understood before such condemnatory pronouncements as some of the above are unskillfully voice
I am sorry if my 'advice' was unskillful. I was sharing what I had been previously told and I did not consider the context. My mistake is my own.
Nothing wrong with what you said. Basically, it is good advice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by Brizzy »

Hi Tilt,

I personally don't find your take on things terribly convincing or that your sutta references in any way back up what you are saying.
As you say, I have my understanding of things and you have yours.

BTW Are you sure you have not attained jhanic powers? 40 decades! You beat me by a mile.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:Hi Tilt,

I personally don't find your take on things terribly convincing or that your sutta references in any way back up what you are saying.
As you say, I have my understanding of things and you have yours.

BTW Are you sure you have not attained jhanic powers? 40 decades! You beat me by a mile.

Metta

:smile:
And I personally do not find your "hardened" claim -- which you have now mentioned at least twice now -- meaningful other than it probably says more about you than anything else. It certainly is not a reasonable basis for your ongoing condemnation of Burmese vipassana.

As for jhana, I have stated this before here. During a three month retreat in the late 70's or early 80's I described what I was experiencing to a teacher who had been trained by Mahasi Sayadaw. He said to me that I could do one of two things, simply continue to note what I was experiencing or cultivate what I was experiencing, given that it was indicative of jhana. I choose the latter and I worked with this teacher who was an experienced jhanika. I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further. As for jhanic power, damdifino what you mean here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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