disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby marc108 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:09 pm

tilt, right i understand what you're saying. i think what breezy have been trying to get at... and if not, what i was trying to get at... is that if someone seems able to establish Jhana, then they should find a teacher and try to cultivate that state... as, in my understanding, Jhana is the clearest state the mind can observe the mind/body process. i wasnt trying to say that Jhana should be cultivated as some sort of drug or anything... in my thinking the pleasure is the means to get into Jhana, and Jhana is the means to penetrative insight. :smile:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby daverupa » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:27 pm


Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:38 pm

It is no use guys. Hundred's of sutta references could be provided to show that jhana is an integral part of dhamma (it is the eightfold path, not seven or six or five). It has been stated in this thread that the pursuit of jhana is not dhamma, what a calumny (the pursuit of concentration is another matter). The concentration practices utilised within the BVT produce all the problems we are warned about re jhana. Jhana practice as taught within the canon does not produce these problems. Its like this...............
A system of meditation and its belief structure is 'created' over a period of time. This system produces certain types of results and carries with it certain types of problems e.g. possibility of attachment to one pointed concentrated states, hardened mind etc. Now this system is NOT what is found in the suttas, the jhana in the suttas is a process of relinquishment and insight NOT a concentration exercise. Then the BVT warn people of the dire consequences of attachment to one-pointed concentration and they are right, but it is their own practices which produce this concentration, it is not jhana as taught within the canon that we should fear but the concentration developed by BVT and its suppression of the hindrances. Hindrances in the canon are gradually relinquished via jhana, not suppressed, this is how craving is abandoned. It is a gradual process, with jhana playing a starring role.

BTW I should add that I believe that nimittas and loss of bodily feeling is not part of the jhana process to be found in the suttas.

It should also be born in mind that not all Buddhists meditate, this to is fine. The canon is filled with people who are temporarily filled with joy whilst listening to the dhamma and realise the first stage of awakening. You do not have to meditate to be a follower of the Buddha and achieve awakening. The obsession with lay people doing retreats and racking up BVT mileage is quite a new phenomena

For the benefit of Tilt, who seems to know that I 'have a singular and limited experience'.....
All of the above is my opinion and is formed through personal experience and listening to teachers who understand the Dhamma. Although I have never documented my 'experience', suffice to say that I have been around a good few decades (aeons even), and I have made the dhamma an integral part of my life.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.

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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:14 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:24 am


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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:30 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:03 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:05 am


Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:36 am

Hi Tilt,

I personally don't find your take on things terribly convincing or that your sutta references in any way back up what you are saying.
As you say, I have my understanding of things and you have yours.

BTW Are you sure you have not attained jhanic powers? 40 decades! You beat me by a mile.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.

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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:51 am


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daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:11 pm


Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:12 pm

Ignorance is an intentional act.

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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:13 pm


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daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:16 pm


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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:22 pm


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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby marc108 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:04 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

farmer
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby farmer » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:25 pm


Parth
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby Parth » Mon May 21, 2012 3:01 am

Actually this has to be seen in context of a 10 day retreat where the objective is to give reasonably good introduction in dhamma to a new student. In this time frame letting someone go down on the path of jhana could defeat the main purpose of the retreat.

This is not to say that jhana is bad, it's just that the focus at that time is on developing panna, given that minimal available time of 10 days, this takes precedence.

Metta

Parth

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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Postby amrad » Mon May 28, 2012 1:58 am

I have just reread all of your posts in this thread with much interest, and i think that in retrospect i recieved good advice to ignore the experience of the nimitta. After returning from the ten day retreat i have continued to meditate two hours daily, but although it is still easy for me to ''fall'' into deep levels of concentration, the light has not returned. The enthrallment and rapture with the breath being born and dying is easy to attain, but if i enter deeper levels of concentration it seems that i become cranky in my daily life which cant be right effort or perhaps view, so i dont allow my mind to go there.
The Goenka body scan method was given a three month trial, as i told my self when arriving home, that i would do to give the method a fair trial. It however for me was tedious and cumbersome and just felt wrong, so i now watch the breath at the nostrils which seems to allow me to remain mindfull of all my sense doors but still be very relaxed and enraptured. I would most definitely do another retreat, but not at a Goenka center i dont think.
Thank you all for your posts on this and other subjects. When i run into confusion in my practice this is usually the first place i turn.


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