Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

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genkaku
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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby genkaku » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:30 pm

When it comes to reincarnation, I can't help but remember a contest that once ran in the magazine, "Psychology Today." Readers were invited to come up with the best scam they could think of (pretty inventive idea, I thought). The winner was someone who imagined a company in -- where else? -- California: Patrons were invited to hand over all their worldly possessions. In return for this, they received a slip of paper with a number on it. After they died and were reincarnated, all they had to do was to present the number in order to get all their worldly possessions back.

This sort of reincarnation strikes me as idiotic. Fun, yes; capable of creating an interesting story, yes; but sensible, no. I love a good story as well as the next person, but stories are stories, so I don't put them on the front burner in my life.

Rebirth is another matter. I am completely untutored when it comes to texts and citations so I hope people will forgive me if I make some mistake. Rebirth to me just means what happens in every moment. Every moment is gone before you can say "death" and reappears before you can say "rebirth." The process is utterly smooth. It requires no wise observations. It is just what happens and fussing around about it is largely a waste of time ... noticing, OK; fussing, a waste of time. Perhaps it is like watching the small waves in a lake or in the ocean bay ... each wave flows seamlessly wherever it is headed. Sometimes it meshes with the wave next door. Sometimes it just seems to go its own way. Either way, it is in motion and changing before anyone can intone the word "change." And when the waves stop -- when what was obvious becomes no longer obvious -- well, who in his right mind would say the waves are somehow missing, that change was somehow missing?

What changes cannot be grasped. Past, present and future cannot be grasped. We're along for the ride, assuming there is some "we" in the situation. We have characteristics just like waves and there is no need to pretend we don't. But pretending we could grasp and hold this wave, define and dissect it ... well it doesn't work very well and it sure uses up a lot of unnecessary energy. What 'was' becomes 'is' without any help from 'me.' Might as well enjoy what we tentatively call the 'rebirth' ride. And if "rebirth" is somehow confusing or annoying, well, forget about it. Rebirth won't mind. :)
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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby Fede » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:08 pm

Thank you genkaku....

My problem lies not in "what" it is, but "Why" it is....Reincarnation, that is.... vis-a-vis Tibetan Buddhism.

I am seeking to clarify the Tibetan Buddhist stance on this.

of course, it could be argued that I am in COMPLETELY the wrong forum -! :rofl:

:namaste:

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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby genkaku » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:16 pm

Sorry, Fede. My mistake.

If you want to be an aardvark next go-round, you go right ahead. :rofl:

Just teasing a little.
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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby Fede » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:27 pm

aardvark too much like 'ard work!

I plan to take it easy!!

I didn't mean to slap you down or anything Gen, and my ticket's number 459.....
I have actually posted this in another Buddhist forum, that has a high attendance of Tibetan Buddhists, so I would be interested to hear from them......

:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby Individual » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:36 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:09 pm


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:11 pm


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:13 pm


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:16 pm


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby Will » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:38 pm

Just for an overview of the Tulku notion: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tulku

Within the Indo/Tibetan tantric tradition there are practices that allow one to keep some of the skandhas together so that leaving the present body, at its death or before its death, and entering a new body is possible.

However, the Tulku (nirmanakaya in Sanskrit) tradition is rife with corruption. When first started by the Karmapa lineage, the inheritance of the valuables & property of the previous incarnation was a benefit. Thus, there are many false "tulkus". But a few are real.
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby Individual » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:05 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby stuka » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:31 pm


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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:37 pm

You are an annihilationist, Stuka. In your heart, you refute rebirth.[/quote]

There is no true rebirth as there is no "I" that will be reborn as all is anatta, there is birth everymoment but there is no "I" that is reborn.

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Re: Sorry...What's the difference? (Reincarnation Vs Rebirth)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:07 pm

Greetings,

It looks like we've exhausted this topic from a Theravadin perspective so this thread will now be closed.

Thanks for your participation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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