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Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages? - Dhamma Wheel

Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
manjusri
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Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:00 pm

I attended a weekend teaching recently from a Nyingma teacher on Ju Mipham's Profound Instruction on the View of the Middle Way. The shamatha that was taught was shamatha on a non-referential object, i.e., the mind. I have had shamatha teachings before from a number of Tibetan teachers in which nine stages are enumerated. This teacher mentioned an enumeration in five stages (a grouping of nine stages into five), but could not give me a specific scriptural reference for this. I thought, perhaps, this might be a good place to ask those here if anyone has ever encountered such a grouping, and in what text? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

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bodom
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby bodom » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:12 pm

Hi manjusri

As this is a Theravadin forum you might want to try posting your question on our Mahayana sister site:

Dharma Wheel
http://www.dharmawheel.net/

They will be able to help you further. :smile:

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:41 pm


vitellius
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby vitellius » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:58 am


manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:37 am


vitellius
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby vitellius » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:47 pm


manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:30 am


manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:39 am

According to the Nyingma teacher whose teaching I attended recently, the nine and the five stages of shamatha are found, as he says, in the "source texts of the Buddha's canon." He adds, "The 9 stages are specifically in the shamatha instructions for the Shravaka." Can anyone corroborate this, given my lack of knowledge of the Shravakayana?

Kenshou
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:34 am

In the Pali canon there is no direct equivalent of Tibetan Buddhism's 9 stages that I have seen or heard of.

manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:12 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby daverupa » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:19 pm


Kenshou
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:20 pm

Well, this isn't Nyingma.

Similar to what Dave has said, Theravada =/= the idea of a Shravakayana that exists in the context of Mahayana.

manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:52 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby daverupa » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:11 pm


Kenshou
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:14 pm

I don't mean to make it a minefield. There are probably people who might be able to describe this better.

The idea of the yana of a sravaka that exists in the Mahayana thought-world exists in contrast with various other yanas and in a context with a number of implications and assumptions that are not necessarily overlapping with the Theravada. And so even though it might be safe to say, in general terms, that Theravada is a "discipe's vehicle", the methods under the same name that exist in the Mahayana context do not necessarily align with what Theravadins actually think and do.

Not to say that it is necessarily "completely off the mark", but differing in various details. And the devil is in the details, they say. If you want to know what the Theravada tradition actually does do in more detail, there's plenty of introductory resources around here.

Nyana
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Nyana » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 am


Bakmoon
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Bakmoon » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:45 am

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

Bakmoon
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby Bakmoon » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:00 am

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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fig tree
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby fig tree » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:32 am


manjusri
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Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Postby manjusri » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:11 am

I very much appreciate the posts on this topic to date and will try and carve out time tomorrow to address some of the questions that have arisen since my last post. I think I can get much more specific about what it is I am asking about. I realize this much: finding equivalents between Theravada and Mahayana is apparently not easy as easy as I imagined it to be.


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