Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
ignobleone
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Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

Some people think meditation is to remove hindrances. It's a misconception (wrong view) since from the main Nikayas it's clear that the 5 hindrances need to be abandoned first before meditating.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Do you care to demonstrate by way of recourse to examples?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Leo,

I thought suttas such as these were about how abandoning the hindrances were part of the process:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
:anjali:
Mike
ignobleone
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Do you care to demonstrate by way of recourse to examples?
If you mean the example where it's mentioned in the Suttas, at least there are four sutta references:
- DN 9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- DN 11 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- DN 12 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- MN 39 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ignobleone
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Leo,
I thought suttas such as these were about how abandoning the hindrances were part of the process:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike,
Yes, to remove hindrances one should practice samma-sati, not samma-samadhi.
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mikenz66
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by mikenz66 »

OK, I guess it's a matter of terminology, therefore, what people refer to as "meditation".

If by "meditation" you mean samma-samadhi, then that seems like a reasonable statement.

:anjali:
Mike
ignobleone
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

mikenz66 wrote:OK, I guess it's a matter of terminology, therefore, what people refer to as "meditation".
If by "meditation" you mean samma-samadhi, then that seems like a reasonable statement.
:anjali:
Mike
I thought Theravada Meditation or meditation in Buddhist context refers to samma-samadhi by default. :smile:
:anjali: also
danieLion
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by danieLion »

ignobleone wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:OK, I guess it's a matter of terminology, therefore, what people refer to as "meditation".
If by "meditation" you mean samma-samadhi, then that seems like a reasonable statement.
:anjali:
Mike
I thought Theravada Meditation or meditation in Buddhist context refers to samma-samadhi by default. :smile:
:anjali: also
I thought 'meditation' meant bhavana?
Goodwill
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by danieLion »

ignobleone wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Do you care to demonstrate by way of recourse to examples?
If you mean the example where it's mentioned in the Suttas, at least there are four sutta references:
- DN 9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- DN 11 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- DN 12 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- MN 39 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think you're imposing a seriality (or some kind of order) that the manuscripts themselves don't necessarily imply, as the phrase, "there is the case where...." suggests.
Goodwill
Daniel
ignobleone
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

danieLion wrote:]
I thought 'meditation' meant bhavana?
Goodwill
Daniel
bhāvanā has more general meaning which may not related to meditation. bhāvanā means development/cultivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated bhāvanā as development, for example: Indriya-bhavana Sutta (MN 152) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
You can also judge the meaning yourself by looking it up in a Pali-English dictionary. I use this online Pali dictionary:
http://www.archive.org/details/palitextsocietys00pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ignobleone
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by ignobleone »

danieLion wrote: I think you're imposing a seriality (or some kind of order) that the manuscripts themselves don't necessarily imply, as the phrase, "there is the case where...." suggests.
Goodwill
Daniel
Please do not mind the order. The order is not important. I wrote them that way just to make it looks nice.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

ignobleone wrote:Yes, to remove hindrances one should practice samma-sati, not samma-samadhi.
Yes, that does seem to be supported here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although jhana is dependent on a temporary suspension of the hindrances?

Spiny
Brizzy
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by Brizzy »

ignobleone wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Leo,
I thought suttas such as these were about how abandoning the hindrances were part of the process:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike,
Yes, to remove hindrances one should practice samma-sati, not samma-samadhi.
Yes it is a process, samma-samadhi does not occur in isolation. Samma-sati is part (a big part) of the development of the 7 enlightenment factors which are the factors to be developed to achieve samma-samadhi. I doubt there are many of us who could just sit down and enter something called 'samma-samadhi' straight off, right 'meditation' would be the development of all 7 factors along with the 8 fold path.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
danieLion
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:
ignobleone wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:OK, I guess it's a matter of terminology, therefore, what people refer to as "meditation".
If by "meditation" you mean samma-samadhi, then that seems like a reasonable statement.
:anjali:
Mike
I thought Theravada Meditation or meditation in Buddhist context refers to samma-samadhi by default. :smile:
:anjali: also
I thought 'meditation' meant bhavana?
Goodwill
Daniel
What I meant was 'meditation' is from Latin roots. It's a crap translation of all the Pali words, including bhavana, translated as 'meditation.'

IOW: Buddhists don't meditate.
Goodwill
danieLion
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Re: Meditation, 5 hindrances, and the misconception

Post by danieLion »

ignobleone wrote:
danieLion wrote: I think you're imposing a seriality (or some kind of order) that the manuscripts themselves don't necessarily imply, as the phrase, "there is the case where...." suggests.
Goodwill
Daniel
Please do not mind the order. The order is not important. I wrote them that way just to make it looks nice.
Not the order in your post; the "order" in the Pali manuscripts. The Path is not a literal step-by-step, serial, process. The Buddha taught a variety of cultivations. The Path is not a formulaic, one-size fits all endeavor. E.g., you have to remove the hindrances before you practice, samatha and/or metta and/or vipassana and/or jhana, etc....

"THERE IS A CASE WHERE...."

Goodwill
Daniel
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